#1 from Nancy on February 08, 2010

Bev, please just don’t tell us you have a radar detector ... that actually happened once when I went to hear a guest speaker at a church I was attending at the time. She showed up late and expressed thanks for her radar detector. (Yes, indeed, she was serious.)You can imagine that went over like a lead balloon.

And, just to add a little humour to your story, let’s revise that famous quote by Kipling “Oh, East is East, and West is West, and (hopefully)never the ‘twain’ you’ll meet.”

Have a happy day:)

#2 from David on February 09, 2010

“Sinful attitudes form handles on the soul for Satan to grasp”

In principle i understand what this fellow was saying , or at least i hope so. But i do not like how he worded it. This is going to sound semantical and irrelevant , but its not. It is of the utmost importance that people understand this concept of belief versus attitude.

Everything we say , think , and do we predominantly do without using our conscious minds. We just do. What then dictates our actions/thoughts/words if we generally do not put conscious forethought into them? Well , a belief system/structure… otherwise called a worldview. THe belief system dictates everything in our lives , and every problem can be traced back to a faulty belief system. Every sin is the fault of not believing the gospel, and not believing god is who he is. Negative attitudes are a symptom of that exact faulty belief system. So then i ask , what is the relevance of focusing our attention onto fixing the attitude? OR on fixing the sin itself (even further expanded from the problem)? Now im not talking about completely ignorin these things .... that is not what i am saying. But i am surely convinced that this incessant inclination to focus our attentions onto that which is not the source of our ailments is the very thing which perpetuates the inability to overcome the very ailments we desire to be free of. You see….. we keep ourselves inside the revolving door by focusing our attention on the symptom and not the disease… and consequently him who can cure that disease. It is like giving morphine to a cancer patient…. it may get rid of the symptom ... but the disease remains present. And you will have to give morphine again… which releives the symptoms ... but it always comes back. This may not at all seem like a big deal , but this inability by many to get to the root core of our problems is the very thing which keeps up slaves to these problems. In focusing on our attitudes or our sins and trying to fix our attitudes we ensure , almost humorously enough, that we will continue to maintain the attitudes we desire to see gone. The only possible way to eleviate the symptoms is to fight the disease… and our disease is sin…. and here is the kicker…... there is nothing we can do to fight it. So it is so INCREDIBLY simple .... yet we comlicate it so much. Only god can combat sin in our lives , we cannot , because we are sinful. We can make efforts in concert with god , but do nothing humanly. So the solution is then also very simple. I cant stop gossiping… well, seek god. I have sexual addictions ... well , seek god. I have bad attitudes… well , seek god. My marrige is in trouble… well , seek god together. I stubbed my toe…. well , stop whining and man up. Ok , you can forget that last one…...

“One of the greatest tricks of the devil is to give great attention to that which is not important with the desire of drawing attention away from that which is.” Snuffuluffagus

#3 from Nancy W on February 11, 2010

David, are you saying you would rather Flavel said ... Sinful ‘beliefs’ form handles on the soul for Satan to grasp? Are attitudes precursors to belief? Attitudes are easier to fix than beliefs. You’ve got me thinking.

Let’s use Bev’s racing story as an example. (Thank you Bev for making yourself vulnerable, that’s a trait about you I really like.) Be patient with me as I work this out as I am typing.

David, do you think Bev’s car racing incident is a result of perhaps an underlying desire to achieve? How does her belief system tie into this? Obviously it isn’t in God’s best interest for us to race trains. Did she temporarily forget herself and do something she ordinarily wouldn’t do or is this a behavioural pattern? If it’s a behaviour pattern then I would say she has a problem just as anything else done recklessly (repeatedly)would be a problem and then it would stem from a deeper subconscious source. But if it was a one-time thing that she did I would tend to forget it and just say, boy that was a stupid thing to do. My understanding is: if in fact something is done subconsciously and it’s not good for us or irritating, it is a habit or an obsession. Is not an attitude something we are aware of?

If in fact Bev does have a desire to achieve, when might it become sinful? I think the story I used about the speaker who installed a radar detector to let her know when she was speeding (being disobedient to the law) is when the desire to achieve becomes sinful. Obviously speeding had become a habit to her so instead of dealing with a bad habit she had the attitude that it was okay to speed to get to speaking engagements that would win souls for Christ. Her belief system was faulty because of underlying wrong attitudes or motivations that she had convinced herself justified the outcome. She, in my opinion, was on her own power trip not God’s assignment.

Bev, your salvation always comes in the fact that you know when something is off and you ultimately confess. We are always safe as long as our self determination and hunger for power isn’t stronger than our desire to obey.

If a person doesn’t know the warning signs to crashing or knows when something is off but doesn’t heed the warnings it just happens and there’s nothing you can do about it; it’s too late. On a note of encouragement though, the best thing that ever happened to me personally was burn out ... somehow (if we are more interested in God’s interest for us than our own self interests) eventually it sets things in perspective and gets us moving in the right direction.
Bev, you are fortunate, your warning has come directly from God because you are listening. If we don’t heed His warnings then the ultimate crash does come. You are one step ahead of the game, you are listening and you know where the problem lies. If we crash because we are running ahead of God, it means we have not taken the time to listen, obey and be replenished.

Thanks Bev for this lesson and thanks David for your challenging remarks.

#4 from david on February 11, 2010

Ok. Firstly. Nancy u said this ” Are attitudes precursors to belief? Attitudes are easier to fix than beliefs”

No im saying beliefs are precursors to attitudes. And i think the bible clearly states that attitudes are not easier to fix than beliefs. I believe it clearly states that attitudes along with “sins” are impossible to fix. It is by altering the beliefs that the rest falls into place (see first john).

Nancy , ive read much of what you said ... and to be honest , you seem to be not understanding the concept. Maybe i just didnt explain it well enough , so i will give another try. It is a philosophical concept , but in all fairness , a philosophical concept which comes from the bible. (see first john) Worldviews (belief system) are what dictate human behavior (words , attitudes and actions). For example , if i believe jews are dirty rotten animals that are not worthy of breathing my air , inherently my disposition around one will be different than a person who has a different belief system of jews. Extreme example but i hope it better clarifies the concept (see first john).

Now , since you didnt understand it , its impossible for you to then understand why its important. I know a guy , who used to be an iranian terrorist. He was arrested at the jordan border and thrown into prison. Jesus himself decided to visit the man in prison, and he is now a christian and leading a ministry of outreach and discipleship. He said it like this “David. I tell you this story so that you will remember it. There is a man who owns a store. One day a man opens a store just like it across the street. The man who was there before became worried that he would lose business. So he waited until the new store across the street closed and he broke in. He changed the price stickers of all of the expensive items to very low prices. He also changed the price of all the cheap items to very expensive prices. Once finished he came home and told his wife what he had done. His wifed asked him “HOney , why did you do that… what will it accomplish” Her husband replied “Dont you see? I changed the price of cheap things to make them very expensive prices, so noone will buy them and he will lose money. I also changed the price of expensive products to very cheap prices so that everyone will buy them up right away and he will lose money. Dont you see honey , this will bankrupt him.” Now David (this fellow continues to say) , this is one of the greatest tactics by the devil. To give great value to that which has little , and little value to that which has great.

This speech of his , was about my personal deception at the time , and in particular about my focus on “sins”. What this man was telling me was basically that i was decieved , and was going bankrupt. You see , by focusing on my “sins” i immediately feel a level of guilt , or conviction. And consequently desire to no longer do those “sins”. But , biblically i can do nothing to stop sin , which manifests in sins. So by focusing on my sins i in turn desire to stop sinning and in turn make efforts on my part to stop sinning. This process leads to a perpetual cycle and draws focus away from god himself.Same principle for attitudes. This process is a never ending cycle which leads to complete deception , religion , pride , and heretical teaching. BEcause you see , sinning less is never the objective of christianity. Hear me out. Seeking God is. Sinning less is a side effect of seeking God. By making focusing on my sins the object of my vision i am trapping myself to an endless cycle of making human efforts to “sin” less. Which biblically , is not possible. Only by focusing on him do my sins reduce at all, or my attitude changes. YOu see , dont you hear people in the church say “You need to stop doing this” or “you really need to put up barriers so you dont do that” or “you cant do that as a christian , stop now!” ..... people who say this simply dont get it. What you are doing when you say such things is doing EXACTLY what satan does to people. Giving great value to that which has little whilst drawing it away from that which has much. YOu are trapping people into an endless cycle of humanistic efforts to “do better” and “sin” less. And this seems to be the christian mantra “sin” as little as possible. And what is the result? An entire nation of pharisees. If you truly loved someone , and you knew what the bible taught , you simply wouldnt always say “you need to stop doing this” you would instead say “you doing this is evidence there is something awry with your faith in god. You might be well served to seek him more diligently” Why you ask should that be your response , well see first john for the answer.

This is rushed and after brushing through it horribly vague and inadequete in describing whta i am thinking , but it will have to do. I hope you can better understand now what i mean nancy. So long as christian priority number one is to sin less , we will remain the silent church , run by a “silent” god. (by silent i mean we dont hear). This humanistic effort is something we all claim not to do , but if we are honest , we will see that we do do. (hehehe i said do do ... poop)It is obvious when we “rebuke” someone. We do not realize the point of rebuke is to enlighten someone that wrong is being done when they believe it to be right , not to simply say “you need to stop doing this now” because when you say that , and say nothing else , i assure you that you are not speaking for god , you are actually speaking for the devil himself. How do we sin less? HOw do we change our attitudes? How? Why is that not our focus? Why do we think we can focus on sins and attitudes and somehow make them better? Do we think the bible is lying? No , more accurately we either dont know it or we dont believe it to be true. And hence , evidence that what i am saying is true. See first john. This whole focus on sins and attitudes are signposts of religion deprived of any true intimacy. See first john. See first john. See first john. See first john. YOu see , john was a philosopher. He wanted people to do the only thing that can help combat the things which cause them harm (sins , sin , poor attitudes etc etc) , and that was absolutely not to try harder , but to shift attention away from those things and onto him who can heal our brokeness. First john is actually in my opinion , contrary to popular consenses , a book of grace. Its not seen like that because people dont understand what john was trying to accomplish. Were he alive today , i think he would have a few letters to write to our psychologized regimented western churchiness.

#5 from Nancy Williams on February 12, 2010

David, there is a lot to comment on here and I’m trying to sort it all out but we always want God’s mind on a matter and not our own because that’s a waste of time, so I’m going to try to get His perspective and understand yours at the same time.

I get it that beliefs are precursors to attitudes and now looking back at my own life I understand that yes, indeed, attitudes have changed because my belief system has changed.  I do get your concept; it’s not really that foreign to me. I guess I just wasn’t clear on how you were saying it and sometimes it’s easier for us to understand a concept by using our own words. Bear with me as I try to explain what I think is your concept in my terms and I’ll use my own personal life to do that. Let me know if I’ve gotten close.

For years my life was groaning of “something is not right”, with my Christian life and in the Church, and by golly I was determined to find out what in the world was wrong with the way I believed or the way others believed. Over the past year plus, I have separated myself from formal“church” and have sought Jesus like never before and I have found answers like I never have before. I am more joyful than ever and yet my circumstances are probably as painful if not worse than they ever have been. I’m not afraid of life anymore because my belief system has changed. I actually believe in what I believe and there have been many opportunities for my faith to be tested.  I’m not chained anymore to everything you are talking about, so yep, I get it that seeking God is the answer. And isn’t it interesting that even the desire to seek God comes from Him so really in that sense it’s not anything we do. I agree it all comes from Him. Personally for myself I know the closer God draws me into a relationship with Him, the less enticing sin is; in fact all forms of sin really begin to get repulsive and sin is much more recognizable. It’s not because of anything I’ve done but because God’s grace has been made more evident to me and with that sin becomes less appealing.

I’ll tell you a little story about how God pulls us in and entices us into relationship with no effort on our part. This story may not be significant to you or others but for me because of my background and experience of rejection, very much so. Not long ago Christ appeared to me in a dream but I was awake with my eyes closed, so I guess you call that a vision. In the vision He stood gazing at me; His dark piercing eyes were penetrating. He didn’t say a word and I didn’t dare blink because I didn’t want it to end because I knew for the first time in my life someone saw my heart and understood all the pain and hurt of the years gone by. I could sense that He was telling me that He knows my heart and the sincerity of it and how much I love Him and how much I love His people. In that vision I felt He saw me as an individual; not as a mother, or ex-wife, or former church worker. He saw in me what no one else has ever seen, including me. I knew He was only thinking good things about me and loves how I feel about Him! What a revelation! What immense love and joy I felt in His presence, love and acceptance…no rejection there for sure. He said nothing, but His piercing knowing eyes told me everything I needed to know and that He trusts me. That was huge for me. That vision changed my heart and my life. I now see others as Christ has seen me (as unfinished products but complete in Him and handcrafted with immense love) and I now understand His intense love and vision for His Church (His people) and that vision has changed my belief system.

I agree seeking God and coming into closer union with Him is the answer; no preaching or manipulating or guilting others into changing will do what God can do in an instant through revelation or through long tedious years of discipline and nurturing.  I am a bit nervous though about something. The Bible does talk an awful lot about obedience; it does bother me that I haven’t heard it mentioned. Do you agree that we need to obey God’s word to us in order to live productive lives and have an intimate relationship with God? That is something we are required to do and it is something that is often hard to do and does demand discipline on our part. I know in my life there are times when I have had to make conscious decisions not to sin. That’s obedience and that is something we are required to do. I will say though that the better we get at being obedient the easier it becomes as time moves on. This is Christ through the Holy Spirit living His life in and through us. Without that kind of power it would be impossible to live the Christian life. I wouldn’t even want it ... it would be too much like work.

In all David, I think we are basically saying the same thing in different ways perhaps with a little different viewpoint. If we say we love God and want Him to permeate our lives, one way or the other He’ll get us there. He has more of an interest in that than we do.

So cherio, my friend, let’s just keep on hot pursuit of God and thanks again for all the ways in which you challenge us to think deeper.

#6 from david on February 12, 2010

Nancy i shall respond to this “I agree seeking God and coming into closer union with Him is the answer; no preaching or manipulating or guilting others into changing will do what God can do in an instant through revelation or through long tedious years of discipline and nurturing.  I am a bit nervous though about something. The Bible does talk an awful lot about obedience; it does bother me that I haven’t heard it mentioned. Do you agree that we need to obey God’s word to us in order to live productive lives and have an intimate relationship with God? That is something we are required to do and it is something that is often hard to do and does demand discipline on our part. I know in my life there are times when I have had to make conscious decisions not to sin. That’s obedience and that is something we are required to do. I will say though that the better we get at being obedient the easier it becomes as time moves on. This is Christ through the Holy Spirit living His life in and through us. Without that kind of power it would be impossible to live the Christian life. I wouldn’t even want it ... it would be too much like work.”

It doesnt matter whether or not we make conscious efforts to not sin because without god , without christ we are in sin regardless of whether or not we are at any time committing the acts. Like right now , you are sitting on a chair, and through your eyes you see yourself as still , at a state of rest. YOu believe yourself to be motionless (lets assume you are sitting still) Yet , though unconscious to you , you are on earth which is spinning around its axis and barrelling around the sun in a galaxy which is moving outwards at a faster and faster rate. YOu were already in a state of motion even when sitting still. Getting up and moving to you means then and only then do you move , but you are always moving , getting up and moving around should only serve as evidence to make more evident the fact you were already in a state of motion. Such is the same , biblically , with sin and sins. Without christs gift we are in sin. Sin and sins are different ( i even believe different words are used in greek for them). Sins should serve as evidence that we are already in a perpetual state of sin , and it is when we do sins do we become aware of our state. This is exactly why jesus said “uhhh dude , the only reason i gave you the law was to show you that you cannot keep it” Think about those words and the concept i just said. All throughout the bible this theme and TRUTH is spoken plain as day.

So , am i condoning disobedience? Of course not. But i do not believe sins are our problem. I believe our faith in god , which is directly equivalent to how earnestly and honestly we seek him , is our problem… and 1 step above that is the misappropriation of loves. So basically our sins are not the problem , sin ... the entity of sin… the state of sin is our problem. NOw as believers we can do that which non believers cannot… and that is live in the spirit. We can live in only 2 states , in the spirit or in sin. The acts of sin are used as evidence that i am not living in the spirit (ala first john). And yes the bible does say we should be obedient…. but i ask…. how does it say we best do this? THe overarching theme of the bible is that sin , the state (which is the problem, the acts are only symptoms of the problem) , can only be countered by living in the spirit. And livin in the spirit is done through first belief in god and the gospel and then through diligent seeking of him…. as more than just a concept. So , the bible clearly states that we “sin less” by seeking god… not by trying really hard. In fact the bible clearly states that it doesnt matter how hard you try , alone you are hopeless to sin , like a mouse before a lion there is nothing you can do to overcome it… but instead christ has already overcome on our behalf and imbues his righteousness unto us. So only through him can we sin less, NOT by trying really hard. The bible is clear on this. First JOhn speaks of the way to combat sin. Yes he states obedience is neccessary , but john also takes sinning less and belief in god and makes them inseperable…. as does the rest of scripture. Trying really hard is silly , because when we are living in the spirit ... we dont have to try at all , because when we live in the spirit we do not sin. And when we abide in the flesh , we do nothing but sin… though only through the acts do we become aware of it.

#7 from 3six3 on February 15, 2010

Thank you all for your comments.

Nancy and David, If you would like to continue this conversation please contact me and I will share your email address with each other.

Thank - You
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