#1 from Nancy on March 31, 2010

Jeff, I agree with you completely but herein lies the problem:

Theology in its truest and purest form should be therapeutic. But, because we are human and have miniscule brains by comparison to the Almighty, we have limited knowledge of God and His ways hence we don’t always get it right, in fact I wonder how wrong we, who think we are right, are at times. Even the most knowledgeable of people don’t always agree on theology. Sometimes I think we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt that God indeed has spoken His message through a rather “out of the box to us” method.

It was true that the man left beaten by the roadside (Luke 10) needed practical assistance; neither the priest nor Levite were able to give aid to him because of their “theology”. I think this is sometimes the case with us; our “theology” can get in the way of helping those who really need us. It goes back to that old quote “no one cares how much you know ...”.

I realize what I am about to say is a poor excuse for reasoning but look at the positive side; receiving hope from a book like the Shack is far better than some other forms of therapy that are widely accepted by the Christian community but are far more dangerous and much more expensive.Not great reasoning I know but just a thought.

Theology if well understood should heal wounds but misunderstood theology creates them. I believe Jesus knowing this gives us what we need when we need it and it doesn’t always involve a theologian’s knowledge. Christ is the most out of the box person that ever lived and just when you think you have your theology down pat something happens that changes your mind about what you believe to be true. Praise God that He reaches people through many different forms that we sometimes turn our noses up at. I’m not defending this particular book in fact when I first read it my thoughts were ... oh my, I hope people can see the problem with this. I can’t forget though that many have come to Christ through this book and many have come to Christ through people who don’t have their theology all worked out.

Please understand I am grateful for theologian’s who keep us on tract but I really do believe that God is bigger than our understanding of what we believe to be correct and works way beyond our theological mindsets.

Thanks for the references, I’ll be sure to read them.

#2 from adam on April 02, 2010

i have not read this book. i see it sit on my moms shelf when i go visit her, and thats probably about as far as i will get with it. i am however in the midst of reading through a theology book. but, if what both Nancy and Jeff are saying about this book is true in terms of its picture of God, and how it makes people feel, that being good, then i would have to ask this question in response to Nancy’s comment, “what kind of Christ are people coming to?” just a thought, just a question. thanx

but maybe a good question to ask of those who read this book could be “how does this book affect your view of God?” how one answers this question would tell us if this book is worth reading. what do u think?

#3 from Nancy on April 04, 2010

Adam, I think a good thing to do would be: read the book; find out what the main objections are; find someone who has come to Christ through it; read up on the author and then make your assessment.

I could comment further but it would be best to find out for yourself. I will say one thing; I believe when we truly come to Christ under whatever circumstances, we belong to Him and it is His promise and love that brings us to maturity in Him.

Let us know what you discover.

#4 from adam on April 05, 2010

thank u Nancy for your encouragment to read this book. however, i have never really been a fan of reading fiction books, and especially christian fiction. i have never liked the idea of an author formulating a story to make God look a certain way, the way he wants Him to look. i realize though as i write this and think about my thoughts, how ignorant im beeing. considering Jesus uses made up stories all the time to prove His points and point out the character of God. and so do i, i just dont put it in a book. so maybe i have some reevaluating of myself to do. but i do think my questions are legitimate, and even though we are speaking now of a particular book, i think that those questions should be asked of any book that speak of God. i have heard too much of the “prosperity gospel” and evngelicals who only give have the story when speaking of Jesus, and through that, people do come to the wrong Christ. so that is where my concern lies. i hope this all makes sense. thanx for the discussion.

#5 from Nancy on April 06, 2010

Hi Adam,

I’m not a fan of fiction either and rarely read fiction, however, this book has been attracting Christians in a huge way so I wanted to find out what was so attractive about it. There is nothing scary about reading it if you are grounded in scripture; the unfortunate thing is that most people are not so they won’t necessarily pick up on the weaknesses of theology.

I think with this book you have to look beyond the story. To me it’s more important to try to understand what it is about it that is attracting, particularly hurting people who have not found healing or comfort in their church, friends, or through their understanding of scripture or their relationship with Christ. I think for a lot of people the book gives word pictures to their pain and identifies with their deep hurts in ways that possibly nothing else has been able to touch.

I also think it is important to stay current in the sense that we understand what is happening in our culture and in the Church.  The Shack is currently meeting the needs of a specific group of people and we need to understand why. If we aren’t in touch with what the world and hurting people are responding to we will fail at having any impact on them at all.

Hope that makes sense. Have a beautiful day!

#6 from adam on April 06, 2010

i agree with it being important to know whats going on in our culture and especially in the church, how we can meet needs and teach more effectivley. for as long as i have been a christian, 4 years, i have spent very little time with people my age. i hear about what our young adults are going through in terms of the average struggles, yet i dont get to experience it first hand outside of myself. and so i dont know if what im hearing is actually true, or just hear say. also to develope relationships outside of the church so to be able to point more effectively to the need of Jesus. i will try and open my mind to more fiction. i feel well grounded in scripture and the truth of the bible, and i know that God will help know whats right and wrong in books that i read. bye for now

#7 from Diana Couper on April 08, 2010

I read the book understanding that it was a story, not a biblical reference.  What I got out of it though was a different perspective on forgiving something that I had previously clutched to myself as unforgivable.  I suffered horrific terrors as a child, and was overwhelmed by the demonstration of forgiveness and love that I saw in The Shack.  It allowed me to see that God wanted me to let go of alot of pain and suffering so that I could forgive.  I already knew that from scriptures and counselling, but through a little story, I saw it in a different way.  I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Can the theological ideas be harmful?  Yes.  But I think that with everything else, we need to test it, test it, test it.

#8 from adam on April 10, 2010

amen Diana. and praise God for speaking to you through that book.

#9 from Duncan Nalos on April 12, 2010

I read the book The Shack, by William P. Young recently. I found it to be quite captivating and thought provoking, and I would recommend it to others.  I liked his depiction of the the warmth and relationship of love with in the Trinity,  and the unique way God is presented as leading Mac through the healing process. Mac, although a fictional character, was really the authors way of talking about his own healing journey, and I think a lot of people can identify the pain Mac’s life, and the questions that came out of his pain.

  I can see why the book could be considered controversial if someone took it literally as a book of theology.  God the father reveals himself to Mac in the story as a black woman, a gourmet cook, with a fabulous sense of humor.  I loved it, but I can see, however, that some people could have difficulty picturing God this way.  W.P. Young has really taken God out of the box, and I found this refreshing.  The author has intentionally not identified himself with any religious organization or institution, and some people are bothered by this.  I think his intent in doing this was to reach a broader audience, rather than to diss the organized church, but again some people might have a problem with this.

Duncan

#10 from David on April 17, 2010

Im glad Pastor Jeff saw the error in the book for in it ‘God’ is taking the Bible out of Mac’s hands, not into devotions, but in contrast the Bible states that God has placed His word, the Bible, above His own name. It is sad that we are seeing Christians place the Bible on the shelf and opting for a book with something “enlightening”. When I read the Bible I get a fear of God for what He allowed in the Old Testament and what He will allow to happen in the future, that book left me with a god that wears hippie sandals.

#11 from Duncan Nalos on April 18, 2010

I read and study my bible daily, it stands alone and and will never be replaced by any other book.  Its been a while since I read the Shack now and I remember thinking that it was an insightful book full of fiction and fantasy and yes the God concept portrayed did lack some the kind of fear of the Lord that you would read about in Isaiah 6 or Revelation 2, but it did have some wonderful insights on grace, although when I think about it the main character in the story was prostrate before God on a number of occasions, so maybe the description of the God with hippie sandals doesn’t fit to well.  Its quite likely that Jesus did wear sandals.  If you wanted to frame the book as a theology text rather than an allegory you could find other problems.  Just for the record I’m not replacing my bible with the shack!

#12 from Jason on April 18, 2010

I have not, and will not read the book. Call me a ungrounded in the scriptures or call me easily influenced but we are supposed to put on the armour of God and an important part of that is the belt of truth.
Have you ever watched a documentary on UFO’S and even though you know it is untrue, you feel robbed of something? You feel like you have taken 1 step forward and then 2 steps back? You wish you never would have watched it to begin with? Well I have. I think I am decently grounded in the scriptures. I know that Christ died to make a way for me and that He has chosen me. He has justified me and is currently sanctifying me. I believe this all to be true, but if I pollute myself with unbiblical teachings about God then I am not helping myself.
I have heard enough people say to stay away from this book to listen to them. Maybe I am not yet strong enough in my faith to be able to read a book which contradicts the God of the bible by making Him more paletable and less fearful but why would I want to?
If most Christians are reading it and liking it, I am sorry but that is a sign for me to back off as well. Jesus says that the gate is wide and way is easy that leads to destruction and those who enter by it are many(Mat 7:13)and I believe Him. I don’t want to do what most Christians are doing.
I do believe that people can be saved through books like these if the Gospel is preached. However, it is not because of the book but in spite of it. Like I said, I have not read this book and I don’t want to judge people who have but I think we should listen to the Tim Keller’s and Jeff Bucknam’s of our lives and be careful.

#13 from Nancy on April 19, 2010

I’m going to throw out a thought and of course this first and foremost applies to me. If I (we), the Church (ALL true believers in Christ), lived out our lives as completely and as fully as Jesus lived out His, in other words, if we daily in all ways practiced what we preach, the world wouldn’t need replacement theology.

#14 from Mike Epp on April 22, 2010

The legitimacy of our thoughts about God are worthy and to be accepted according to the truthfulness of them. If we have therapeutic feelings about a God (god) that does not exist, according to revelation in Scripture, then our therapy is based on an imagination and idea, and a lie, but not truth. The God of the Bible always deals toward is people by revelation. Revelation through Scripture by the Holy Spirit.(God’s revelation of himself never can have error) If we imagine a god to be something, even if there are “good feelings” behind it, and it is outside of Scripture revelation, then we have taken a step toward apostasy. There is only one true God.

#15 from lornewel on April 23, 2010

I read The Shack a couple of years ago. As I recall, I found it made me think about what I believed about the members of the Trinity, was that book’s portrayal more supported by scripture than mine, etc. It helped me to reflect on God’s lovingkindness toward us in tragic times and in spite of our undeservedness. But I would not consider that fictional story as my source for theology.

And since the theme of this blog post is about correct theology, I’d like to comment on something David posted here on April 17, i.e. “the Bible states that God has placed His word, the Bible, above His own name.”

That appears to be based upon the King James translation of Psalm 138:2, “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” Other English versions translate this verse in a way that I find more consistent with the rest of scripture. For example NIV puts it, “I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.”

A few other related points:
- I think it is risky to base theology on one verse in the Bible in isolation, especially on a translator’s version.
- This verse is not quoting God as the prophets often do. This is part of a psalmist’s poem or song and may or may not accurately reflect what God says about himself.
- Not everything “in the Bible” is good theology. I would not want to believe about God whatever Job’s friends say “in the Bible” nor about Jesus what the scribes and Pharisees say “in the Bible.”
- Most of the Bible as we have it did not exist when the psalmist wrote that. The Hebrew word he used for “word” has the primary meaning of speech or utterance, not “bible.”

#16 from lorne R on April 25, 2010

concerning bad theology good results.  a social friend said to me casually and personally that while watching the movie “Last temptation of Christ” the crucifixion scene led to his acceptance of christ.  i made no comment, and still don’t, but believe there is a relationship between poor message and inadequate knowledge.  most disappointing is their inability to distinguish between the two.    because it was eatable and your stomach is full does not equate nourishment. what can cure the mind can also condemn the soul.

#17 from Chris on April 28, 2010

Great post Jeff! This seems to be a subject that gets a lot of press.

I think that the problem with “The Shack” is that many have placed it on the same allegorical ground as “Pilgrims Progress” but the theological soundness of these two books could not be more different.

It seems to me that it is well nigh impossible to not read a book like “The Shack” without absorbing some amount of bad theology. It is not enough to simply say, for instance, “I didn’t read the book for it’s theology”. I think that if you find your affections being drawn toward a Triune God who is portrayed as a black woman, a lumberjack and a diembodied Asian woman, there is massive potential for breaking the 2nd Commandment. It is very dangerous ground for an author to remake God into another image. I am confused as to why all of us don’t see this as a fundamental problem.

John Bunyan and C.S. Lewis’s allegories are very different in this regard. Bunyan’s allegory is about a Christian’s journey, in which he applies biblical language and metaphor throughout the tale. C.S. Lewis never directly compares any character from Narnia to a biblical one, he leaves much to the imagination and seeks more to explore biblical themes. 

William P Young’s allegory is not much of one. He seems to blatanly remake God into a different image. This is a serious matter. Especially because it is being read by so many Christians who are emotionally drawn to it.

Thanks for bringing it up Jeff!

#18 from Ryan on April 29, 2010

Initially when i had read the shack i found it rather patronizing , as it were , as if it were written to a small, lame, child. This aside, it appeared to paint a picture of a politically correct deity. A deity which appeals to our emotions , not to actuality…. or to be blunt , to simple reason.

The problems , imo , have absolutely nothing to do with the likes of god being portrayed as a black woman , a lumberjack and an asian specter. Instead the problem arises from the deity being portrayed as a teddy bear who caters to our emotional undulations , and our selfish desire to be inexorably enveloped with that which we deem “desirable” portions of such undulations. A malleable lump of puddy whose soul purpose in existence is to appease emotions in such a fashion which renders that same god prone to duality in nature , or to speak plainly , proved good by being bad (cant write it any simpler than that, sorry). Such a foolish and paradoxical book this is , how the author cannot see the overlap in his conceptions of god is beyond me. Irregardless   i savvy not too many of you go so far as me to ascribe such duality of nature to god (ya , i dont object. I see duality anyways) , if you do .... well i pity you….. if you do not , you cannot like this book. Well you can , but you would then not be overly bright. Praise be to silly puddy! And dont be haughty bucknam (as well as eveyone else who wrote in rejection of this book) , a lump sits atop your pedestal also. More of this vapidity i read from both sides of the fence , the more i like my dog.

#19 from Duncan Nalos on April 30, 2010

Those of you who pride yourself on your ability to do critical thinking discerning of truth and the quest for orthodoxy, who loathe fiction, may I remind you that Jesus was a story teller.  His parables were not meant to be analyzed for their historical correctness, or wether the allusions to truth in the story were accurate, but rather for the kernel of truth that was at the core of the story.  I think some of you critical thinkers might do well to stop examining the chaff and start looking for the kernel of truth.  Jesus said to the Pharisees, “You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel”.

#20 from Nancy W. on April 30, 2010

I think it’s right and appropriate to applaud the theologians and thinkers who try to keep us on track. It is God’s call to these people to keep us on the straight and narrow following the path of truth. Here are just a few verses from scripture that should help us to support those who have this overwhelming calling:

“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”2 Timothy 4:3-4

“But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.” 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.” Colossians 2:8

I think it’s important to understand that the devil can imitate every work of Christ. He is at work producing tares while Christ is at work producing wheat. They resemble each other and are growing up together. Satan’s aim is to defuse the work of Christ by producing imitators and beguiling them into producing havoc within Christ’s Church.

Theologians have the responsibility of discerning what is of Satan and what is of God. They have the responsibility to warn and we have the task of listening and also discerning anointed leaders because there are leaders amongst us who are not anointed by God. This is what makes it tricky and this is why we need to know God for ourselves and be diligent to study and understand the details of our faith.

I hope our motives are always pure and honest in any debates that we involve ourselves in. I know it is my desire to be honestly searching for answers where I have questions. I am grateful for all your thoughts because they sharpen my mind and make me want to dig deeper.

#21 from Chris on April 30, 2010

Duncan, I agree with you about our need to be careful about pride, especially because “knowledge puffs up” (1 Cor 8:1). So thank you for the reminder to all of us brother! I really do mean that.

However I don’t recall anyone proposing on this blog that they loathed fiction. In fact, I am sure many here love Christian fiction that is well written and theologically astute. The debate here is regarding the theological accuracy of “The Shack”. I don’t think that the Shack is at all comparable to Jesus’ use of parables or allegory. Again, my argument was that “The Shack” is not much of an allegory. It flirts with the second Commandment in a big way. However, I do respect you view as well.

I also don’t think it is fair to equate any matter of critical thinking with Pharisaism. Jude 3 tells us that we are to “contend earnestly for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints”. It is quite clear when reading Paul’s epistles that being concerned about theological accuracy is an important matter. If our lead Pastor thinks this is an important enough matter to discuss, I think it deserves our careful reflection and discernment.

God Bless

#22 from Duncan on May 01, 2010

For those of you who think that the sovereign dignity and righteousness of a holy God is reduced by His portrayal as a black woman in the kitchen, and that this kind of theology is dangerous, and unbiblical.  I would have to agree that it really does sound blasphemous.  However let me remind you that according to the gospels, the God of the bible chose to be born in an animal shelter, and identify with lowly shepherds.  He did not come us in his grandeur or splendor as a sovereign king.

Would the God of the bible really be insulted with being portrayed as a black woman in the kitchen?  Actually I think he would like it.  I think that he sees his image in every human being, and delights to be portrayed as a black woman, especially if she is a good cook!  This God of ours is radically incarnational.  Frankly I’m glad he is, because it gives me hope. 

Despite all the bantering back and forth I hope we can maintain an attitude of brotherly love.

#23 from adam on May 02, 2010

this is good discussion!!

#24 from Nancy on May 03, 2010

I agree Adam and of course Duncan, we can maintain an attitude of brotherly/sisterly love, especially since we’re not in the same room with one another (ha!). And if he wants he can show up any time in my kitchen as a good cook. Seriously though, Jesus at the age of 12 was found in the temple teaching and listening and debating. The freedom to even be able to do this is a not something we should take for-granted. I’m kind of looking forward to the next topic though Jeff.

#25 from Angela on June 06, 2010

It’s funny because I started reading “the shack” a long time ago as I got the book as a gift. Low and behold I never finished it, as I found a lot of it really weird. To me this book seems VERY emergent.
I sent the same link that you posted here to some of my friends who asked me about the book a while ago.
I am so happy to go to a church where the pastors weigh things up with scripture, and don’t just take things in at face value because it helps soothe our itching ears.

God Bless and thank you for sharing this!

#26 from Nancy W. on June 06, 2010

Since we’re back to the subject of the Shack and mainly because it keeps coming up in conversations, I’ve been thinking a lot about the theology of this book (or lack of) and also my own theological belief system. I have a question for anyone who has some insight: When we box Jesus into our own system of theological beliefs, don’t we subject Jesus to a mere human description? Are we not in danger of hindering growth; if we tie ourselves down to our “idea” of Him is there not a danger in that also? Should we not be leaving room for new revelations? Maybe He really is more than what I (or we) have made Him to be or think Him to be. I’m always learning new things about God. I’m not ready to put Him into my neat little theological box. Who can really truly define what or who God is; that almost smacks of arrogance. I think as long as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is truly at the heart of a man/woman, He will make His truth (theology) known and because it is His life lived in and through me (us) I trust Him to teach me the truth about Himself and teach me the things I need to know and not concern myself with what I don’t know.

#27 from Abraham on July 30, 2010

Thanks for the council on the book pastor Jeff. I have to agree with you & Lorne, amen Angela, great points Chriss,I believe if we spent more time in God’s Word and let the Holy Spirit minister to us through His Word we’d all be in a lot less need of a make me feel good, lift me up crisis. I haven’t read in scripture where the disciples or Jesus handed out tracks of 12 steps to a wellness plan. A book is but a book, and the Bible is infalible. I know as for me and my home the self help books and outside theology (out of the box theories) has to go into the bin. I know I collected my share over the years due to seeker sensitive and a better life here and now mentality. blessings
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.