#1 from Nancy on January 30, 2011

Without having read books on this subject, I don’t really understand why this is a contentious issue with the view that God has answers for every dilemma. So please, in my most humble uneducated layperson way may I be bold enough to comment.

My first thought would be: why would God even gift women with leadership abilities if He didn’t intend on them using their abilities to the highest potential and for His glory. My second thought would be: if a woman is called by God to lead in a particular area of leadership, I don’t think man could thwart His plan, if indeed it is His plan and not just the woman’s desire to be on the leadership ladder to advance a personal agenda. The problem often is one of motivation ... why does anyone seek a leadership position. It is a serious thing to lead outside of God’s calling to lead and I would hope in leading one would lead under God’s direction. I think moving anyone into such a position of authority should be a “heart” decision and not a “head” decision and it should be a decision soaked in prayer.
I say don’t go with “tradition” and also don’t go with “progress”. You can take both of those into consideration but always go with what God says in those moments when He speaks loud and clear and there is no doubt whatsoever. That’s what we as Christians should base our important decisions on, not on books or the popular opinion or what will keep you in your job. Listen to your heart but make sure it’s God’s heart and not your own personal preference.

I don’t know if you are a fan of Oswald Chambers; I am and I do respect his interpretation of scripture although at times it seems harsh. Here is what he says this morning in “My Utmost for His Highest”: “...God never speaks to us in startling ways, but in ways that are easy to misunderstand, and we say, “I wonder if that is God’s voice?” Isaiah said that the Lord spoke to him “with a strong hand,” that is, by the pressure of circumstances. Nothing touches our lives but it is God Himself speaking. Do we discern His hand or only mere occurrence? Get into the habit of saying, “Speak, Lord,” and life will become a romance. Every time circumstances press, say, “Speak, Lord”; make time to listen. ... As we listen, our ear gets acute, and, like Jesus, we shall hear God all the time.”
Now on a personal and practical level, I don’t think I as a woman would attend a church that does not have women representation on a governing board of elders or on the board of pastoral elders. However if I knew for a fact this decision had been based on coming away with God on the issue and not a decision based on someone else’s interpretation of scripture, I would be more inclined to appreciate and adhere to that decision.

In a BSF class that I am taking, we are not allowed to use a concordance or books referring to a subject. It’s amazing how much I hear. I do go later, after I’ve studied in silence, to check with a Bible commentary to confirm what God is saying to me.

It would help for your people to know the route you took to reach your decision and did you reach it alone or did your present day elders and perhaps some godly women agree with your decision and how you arrived at it. 

These are big decisions, I understand. They affect people but I think if people trust that you have reached those big decisions, not with your intellect alone but with your heart, in your closet, they will respect the decisions you make. Please understand that it’s not always easy for followers to trust their leaders because we have so many leaders who lead us in wrong directions and it affects our lives. However, if you all make a mistake, you all make a mistake; it can be corrected or forgiven, whichever.

God bless you and others as this decision is made.

#2 from Adam on January 31, 2011

God speaks loudest and clearest throught His word. so what does His word say regarding this issue? our decisions can be heart decisions, but if they dont line up with scripture, then they are wrong decisions, because scripture is our ultimate authority, not our feelings. so God would not call anyone, men and women alike, to do things that are contrary to what He has purposed them to do. so if a women is given great leadership skills, and a desire to lead for His glory, then she should lead, but with in the guidlines God has placed for women. so the only way to know if your heart is Gods heart is through His word. u get a feeling that God is saying something to u? you think youre suposed to do something? take it to Jesus. take it to Gods word. you do your best to interpret it, read commentaries to confirm or correct. speak to pastors, read books, and yes, PRAY for sure. it is Gods very spirit who teaches us truth regarding His word.

#3 from Linda on February 02, 2011

Thanks Jeff for posting this article.
I appreciate the conversation we had, and there was much food for thought on all the issues we spoke about.
I will follow through on your suggestions of things to read, as well as other readings I have sought out.
My goal is to be God-honoring in all areas of my life, and I think that means, in this case, that even though I may not agree fully with your interpretation of Scripture, at this point it is not “the hill I wish to die on”.  I sense in you, as so many others have, a sincere desire to present the Word of God in the most truthful way possible.  That means more to me than not fully agreeing on your every interpretation of Scripture.
My challenge to myself and everyone in ministry (does that exclude any Christian?!) is to firstly be passionate for Christ, then ministry will flow out of that.  If I am firstly passionate about Christ’s ministry, I can easily get side-tracked about priorities!
Blessings.
Linda

#4 from lornewel on February 11, 2011

We all bring our presuppositions, life experiences, cultural milieu and so on to EVERYTHING we experience and observe. This is not less true of understanding scripture. Lest we think that it is only Roman Catholics who use both scripture and tradition to establish doctrine, I submit otherwise. Evangelicals also have traditions and within the church you buck them at your peril maybe more than if you buck scripture itself. In fact, even our view of what writings are in and which are outside the canon of scripture is “tradition.” The texts themselves do not say, “There is a canon and I am in it.” The Catholics have a different list than we do.

In response to Nancy’s comments, being gifted is not the same as being appointed by God to a place of leadership. Believers of both genders are indwelt by the Spirit who gives gifts as He sees fit. Both men and women are gifted to lead, and scripture tells both genders whom they are to lead.

#5 from Nancy on February 12, 2011

After reading chapter 2, An Overview of Central Concerns (Questions and Answers), I have questions and comments.

As stated in the document question 1 – Why do you regard the issue of male and female roles as so important?
JP & WG’s answer: “We are concerned not merely with the behavioural roles of men and women but also with the underlying nature of manhood and womanhood themselves. Biblical truth and clarity in this matter are important because error and confusion over sexual identity leads to…”
1) Marriage patterns that do not portray the relationship between Christ and the church.
2) Parenting practices that do not train boys to be masculine or girls to be feminine.
3) Homosexual tendencies and increasing attempts to justify homosexual alliances.
4) Patterns of unbiblical female leadership in the church that reflect and promote the confusion over the true meaning of manhood and womanhood.
My comments here:
I don’t believe this to be a good argument on this basis: at least 2 of these issues have to do with confusion over sin, not confusion over sexual identity. My perspective in regard to:

Point 1- Eve wasn’t confused about her sexuality, she was confused or unclear about sin and the consequences she would have to pay. Many Christian marriages have not necessarily held a standard for biblical marriage and it has nothing to do with sexual confusion; it has to do with confusion over sin.

Point 2 - This could be true in some cases but hey, some girls want to be hockey players and some guys want to be secretaries. That doesn’t mean they are confused about their sexuality. I know some women farmers who know they are women. They love the outdoors and hard work. From a personal perspective, I should have been a lawyer but my parents raised me to be a housewife; pretty typical in my day. Only the boys were given the advantage of learning other career skills. The biggest problem with that for me personally was, eventually becoming a single mom and sole bread winner and only having homemaking and office work skills. My parents should have encouraged me to become a lawyer then I could have kicked my husband’s butt when he decided he didn’t want the lead role anymore. The desire to be a lawyer doesn’t cause me to be confused about my sexuality.

Point 3 – I believe homosexuality (sin) comes from increased tolerance to immoral living, not confused sexuality. Oprah would disagree of course.

Point 4 – Was Deborah, judge, prophetess, wife and warrior (Judges 4 & 5) who was appointed by God to lead the nation of Israel confused about her sexuality? Research tells me that if Deborah was under our dispensation she would have held the office of prophet, teacher and pastor. Was Jael who drove a tent peg through Sisera’s head confused about her sexuality? No, she had a man’s job to do and did it. At times God gives women what is typically a man’s job to do. As a single mom I know that all too well.

As stated in question 2 – What do you mean (in question 1) by “unbiblical female leadership in the church”? “We are persuaded that only men should be pastors and elders…”.
I’m not sure I disagree with this statement but I think if we are staying true to the original intent of God’s purpose we may want to redefine the terms “pastor” and “elder”. I believe the original meaning of pastor and elder has evolved to what it is today and has veered off of the original intent. And yes, I agree that we place people into these positions far too easily. If pastor is defined as shepherd & teacher, I don’t think a 23 year old woman or man qualifies just because they have a degree in Christian education. Also, off the subject slightly, something that has always been a question in my mind and has left me confused is Ephesians 4:11. Whatever happened to the role of apostles, prophets and evangelists who are listed before pastors and teachers? 

Of course there is the never ending debate over Junia (the apostle?)  (Romans 16:7)*. Junias in Greek is male; Junia in Greek is female but research is telling me Junia or Junias was typically known as a female name but there is a lot of controversy regarding the gender of this apostle or even if this person was an apostle. So many varying opinions; which one is really right? The paper written by Piper and Grudem are only one in a million papers written. Then of course, we have the question of Phoebe (the deaconess?) and Priscilla (the teacher?).  It is true that God does not use women in leadership roles often but He does on occasion and at times in ways where the role is unclear. So that’s the question, how do we discern? I am not a women’s libber as some may be thinking but I am one who wants to respect a women when God places her in a position of leadership that might be controversial.  This controversy has often caused seeds of discord; women standing against men. This attitude is not of God and I don’t want any part of that type of attitude. I believe that if a woman is placed in a position of leadership that is questionable, her godly attitude will be what will put her forward and God’s plan will not be thwarted. Perhaps if pastor and eldership is in question for women, you may want to consider the role of deaconess for women. Somehow women should have representation in the church.

As stated in question 3 – “Where in the Bible do you get the idea that only men should be the pastors and elders of the church”? The texts given were: I Timothy 2:11-15; I Corinthians 11:2-16 & 14:34-36. According to all of these passages we are really doing church very wrong. Now, this is addressed in the document by Piper and Grudem but I don’t see the consistency throughout this document. Shouldn’t we be consistent in all areas and not just the area of leadership?

Under point 7, the writers say “in view of these teaching passages, the pattern of male leadership that pervades the Biblical portrait of family life is probably not a mere cultural phenomenon over thousands of years but reflects God’s original design, even though corrupted by sin.” A thought came to me as I was processing this statement. I feel like I want to say “in view of these teaching passages , the pattern of male leadership that pervades the Biblical portrait of church life is probably not a mere cultural phenomenon over thousands of years but reflects God’s original design, even though corrupted by sin.”

Further down in the document, I love what Elisabeth Elliot says about single women. This also applies to divorced women and a stand that I have personally taken as a divorced woman. Now there’s another topic for debate and one I have personally suffered through for years … what do we do with a divorced woman who wants to be involved in ministry? I’ve read some pretty hurtful papers on that topic and I ache for divorced women who love the Lord and want to serve in purity and honesty but aren’t allowed to move past their past because of the stigma or judgemental attitudes on the part of leadership. Ouch!

I understand the need to come to conclusions on these matters and applaud those who have the patience and desire to pursue these topics that involve endless hours of study. One of the reasons I said in a previous blog that when decisions are hard to come by as a result of hours and hours of research and study, we have to rely on what God speaks to us through the heart. I personally am fairly certain of what God has spoken to me in relation to the pastor and elder positions. I believe as individuals we need to come to conclusions in order to support whatever leadership we are under and in order to be a productive part of a specific body of believers.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this very debateable issue.God bless!

#6 from Megan on February 13, 2011

I am a young woman who has been attending Northview for the past two years. Once I heard that woman were being limited within the church I immediately felt belittled and inferior to men every time I stepped into church. If we truly take the passages in the bible that speak of women roles within the church don’t we find that they are purely cultural for their time. That women were uneducated and disrupted sermons with their questions and needed the guidance from their husbands so as not to interrupt the word of God. Personally, I haven’t read these books or had much education but are you saying that if I spend the time obtaining the same education as a man I’m still not equal to him in God’s eyes? Why would Jesus Christ want anything less than for us to love each other equally without worrying about our gender as the basis for whether we are capable leaders to spread God’s Word. Why am I allowed to go on Missions trips and teach men in other countries what God as spoken to me but not men within my own church? Why, if women aren’t to lead men according to the bible are we allowed to lead other women or children? Where in the scriptures does it explain the exceptions of different aspects within the church that are acceptable for women to lead? Anywhere I go in the community and in society I am given the same opportunities as any man but the moment I am surrounding by Christians I am suddenly not as capable as a man. I, as a young Christian, am the future for our churches and communities but if I am not given the freedom to use my voice how can my generation succeed in leading and spreading God’s Word?

#7 from Adam on February 13, 2011

Megan, this is not an issue that is easliy discussed on here, and really is too hard to point out the specifics, not that i could anyways. but i have read Kevin De Youngs book. its a short one, but it really helped me understand the roles in this particular area. men and women are of equal value, but we play very dfferent roles. God has established those roles, and its right for us to follow them. think of a hockey team. what if the goalie all of a sudden decided he was going to play the center position right in the middle of the game. talk about a disaster. is the goalie any more or less important because his role calls him to stay in the net? no, of course not. and should he feel belidled when the coach tells him to get back in the net? well, i guess thats all on how the coach says it. anyways, the point is that we should learn our roles, and embrace them because they have been established by God himslef. so i encourage u to learn, ask questions, but try not to get too worked up before u do all that. thanx.

and Nancy, the enlightenment says we need to be true to ourselves, and listen to your heart. God says listen to me, and my word is the rock. so the bible needs to be our ultimate authority, not the heart

#8 from Dawn on February 14, 2011

I Feel the book recomended was Biblical and well balanced. I applaud Northview stance on Biblical balanced churches and homes. If the church will rise up and return back to God ordained gender roles then we can make a bigger impact in society. I feel the feminsit movement did more damage than good.

If we look at the results in society no one is raising the children. How is that women feel it is a lesser thing to have the honor of raising up the next generation. This is our calling and a holy one at that! Its a confused society Women walking around trying to be men and men acting like feminine women. When we look at scripture Men being leaders is not about dominance but rather love and protecting his family and the body of Christ in his God given role.

This topic is in my opinion one of the core issues in why Divorce is just as high in the church at this time as the world. As a women under both Gods authority, church authority and my Husbands authority I feel no control. I have the joy of raising my children, my husband honors me listens to me. On the occasion where we didn’t agree and he made a decision based on his desire to please God even if it was wrong. Like Sara in the Bible I had faith in God to protect our family if my husband made a mistake in his decision. By honoring my husband as the head of the family and him making his decisions even when occasion he has made a mistake he grew from it. This kind of honoring my husband in turn was really about me honering Jesus as well and his covering for my life.

My Husband became a better leader for it. We say we women want strong male leaders but, that takes us submitting and allowing men to grow in their roles in the home and church leadership. As a women who has been in Christian service I do not feel oppresed in any way. I find it interisiting that the focus is what we cannot do. I have gotten to preach the gospel to women and see there lives changed, share the gospel to the lost overseas, pour into children the word of God, pray for transformation, healing salvations. Wow the call of a women we have so much God has entrusted us to do. Why would we want to take on a mans role and responsibilty as well? I get it when there is no Godly man in a position for a women to temp. take on a authority role. It brings me back to the garden of Eden in my thoughts Eve had the whole garden but, the serpent convinced her somehow she should have the one thing she shouldn’t have. God in his infinite wisdom was covering them by telling them not to eat of the tree of good and evil.

As women we enter under Gods covering now when we appreciate and submit the godly leadership in our lives. This issue is bigger than I can even understand theologically its represents the very nature of God. Jesus submitted to God the father. So ladies if Jesus the Son of God understood and submitted to authority we to should study the bible and do likewise surely we are not above Jesus example? I will end with this in times where I did not understand the whys I return to my knowing God loves me and he had good for me when I obey his word and ways he works things out for my good in the end. Its even more about my Covenant with the Lord.

#9 from Thomas on February 14, 2011

I do agree with Lornwell about church traditions being a barrier between man and god. I believe church tradition is as serious an issue as cultural infiltration in most churches. At northview, i believe it is the more severe of the two. However, i think this issue speaks to a problem with modern christians with respect to the notion of a self created god not being real. Here is what i mean.

God exists. We all agree about this. Since we can agree on this established fact the next thing to do is establish how he exists. Which is far more difficult. Eventually we arrive at the conclusion that its not possible for a finite entity (us) to comprehend an infinite reality (god). To make it visual, we are like drawings on a sheet of paper. We exist in a plane similar to stick figures and poorly drawn animals which all look remarkably similar to one another (just me?). God in this metaphor, is the painter. He exists in a whopping three dimensions, looking down into our 2d existence. So, when we see god, it is like him putting his finger into our plane of reality. So, what would a 3 dimensional finger look like in a 2 dimensional world to a stickman? But a sliver of what it really is?

The point is, we simply do not have the capacity to see god as he is. Its simply not possible, and it defies every notion of physics and logic to suggest otherwise. We are totally hopeless. Sounds pretty bad huh? Well, not really. You see, god gave us a book. That book, is his truths. It is to be taken with the absoluteness attributed to god himself. If we simply are not capable of understanding god subjectively, there must be some objective glimpse, or guidelines for us to base our conceptions of god on, otherwise we could have no accurate conceptions of him. So, he gave us a book. In this lifetime, that book must be taken as god himself, for without it, we can not even have the slightest comprehension of god. It is his three dimensional finger being put into our two dimensional stick figure world. It is all we have, and we must take every word of it as pure unadulterated absolute truth.

All this being said, the bible is quite clear about this issue. We may not agree with it, but that changes not the inarguable fact that the bible does not create leave way on this issue. So when a person objects, they are not just objecting to this issue. You see, everything is connected. Like a stone into a pond a single issue has the capacity to show a man his distorted worldview by the implications of that one single issue.

The implications of fighting this? Or refusing this? It means we negate parts of the bible. It means we specifically select aspects of it which appeals to our finite notions of what is good, and we negate the portions we take objections with. So, when god puts his finger into our 2 dimensional world, we reject part of what we have been shown then proceed to argue with absolute certainty that we two dimensional stick figures living in our two dimensional world looking at but a sliver of the body of god knows to the fullest extent what he looks like.

You see, claims of refutation are also claims to knowledge. If i tell you that 2+2=5, how could you possibly know i was wrong unless you knew for certain the answer was 4? So, when taking objection with an issue which the bible speaks clearly about, what we are saying is that we know better than god. We are saying that us humans actually have the capacity to understand god to the fullest degree. In fact, with such a mindset we are saying that we dont even need the bible. If we can comprehend god as stick figures without the need for a finger into our paper thin world, then we dont need the finger.

To put it simply, it says that we know better than the bible. It says that we do not need the bible. It says that the highest thing in human existence is not just a human perspective, but our perspective. It is nothing short of complete arrogance. Of which, i am more than guilty. I too take issue with parts of scripture.

However, i advise caution. You see, i am right when i say that god exists as the painter and us as the drawing. We can see nothing outside of our sheet of paper and consequently cannot see god fully for what he is. The worst thing we could possibly do is rely on our own vision and limited understanding to create an intellectualized notion of an objective deity that we logically cannot fathom. For when we do so, we not only create to our own specifications (wherein we never will encounter philosophical crisis), but we do just that. We create him. That god we claim to believe in and serve, he isnt real. He is just a creation of your mind. Which is why, we must accept the bible as the absolute guideline. We may not understand it, and we may disagree with it, but it is his finger into our stick world. Refusing it is refusing the objective god himself. We abandon that and create a more socially acceptable god which we choose to serve, we are in trouble. Because the god that saves isnt the god you choose to believe exists, the god that saves is the one who actually does.

#10 from barb on February 16, 2011

Adamm we are not women made to fit into your “roles” as you put it.  God has made us each unique and not one size fits all.  This type of preaching has caused so many women to leave Mennonite Churches and find a place of respect and most importantly God’s love.  We are not loved if we are not equal!  Megan good for you that you have discovered this at such a young age.  You are made in God’s image and listen to His higher authority.  Women not allowed equality is actually against MB Church belief’s and I am saddened to see a Church actually going back about 20 years in it’s doctrine. How can the conference agree to Women as Senior Pastor’s and yet Northview won’t let them be Elders?  Keep searching Megan you can find a church that will value your talents and encourage you both spirtually and as a person.  This church will not flourish if over half it’s population is continually marginalized.  Women can be anything they want; stay-at-home Mom’s,teachers, doctor’s etc.  How sad that in the church we are to leave our education at the door.  More women than men are graduating from our Seminaries these daysm I wonder if God has a bigger plan for the future than we can foresee? Hmmm, makes you wonder!

#11 from Nancy on February 17, 2011

Lorne, I realize the difference between giftings and appointments. My belief is that appointed positions are not always filled by appointed people be it man or woman.

Megan and Barb, here’s the deal as I see it. Too many “people” (men and women) go into ministry for wrong reasons. The percentage of pastors who do not have leadership abilities is very high, something like 75%. Either we are paying too much attention to leadership skills and expecting too much out of pastors or a lot of wrong people are in seminaries. Maybe someone has further ideas on that. The thing though is this: we should never go into ministry because of what we can get out of it. It’s not about promoting ourselves and yet this is so much of what happens in church work; people promoting themselves. I wish we would get honest about this. People who go into ministry with the wrong agenda hurt the church. It’s not suppose to be an easy job with a lot of perks. It’s a work that costs and very often hurts badly. I think if those going into seminary could only see the cost and the toll it takes on ones family, they would think twice about it. Seminary is the romantic stage of ministry and provides you with the education but not with the practical aspects of day to day responsibiities. So when you fight for women’s rights to be in the higher end of leadership make sure you know what you are fighting for. Best of everything in your life’s work.

Adam, I would think by now you would know me well enough to have figured out that I’m really not in enlightenment and I was feeling rather insulted by your last remark toward me. However, all is well and no harm done.

Dawn, I like your attitude toward marriage. I had that attitude also. My husband and I taught Bible studies together and were very involved in church leadership. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how much of an effort you put into a marriage, stuff happens and sometimes the other person just wants to run from the stuff instead of working it out. Nothing you can do about it when the other person runs. I hope you never experience that.

It has been a good discussion. Thanks!

#12 from Adam on February 17, 2011

Barb, i dont know if u are agreeing with my comment, or arguing it. but i dont know who has said that men and women are not equal in Gods sight, but if someone said that, they would be incorect. and after carefully looking over my last comment, i definatley didnt say that. and im very confident that Northview is not saying that. listening to Jeff speak about it enough times, im sure he would say that men and women are equal in value, but made for different purpose. the other thing i know confuses this, is that Northview uses the terms elder and pastor in seperate ways, meaning two different roles in the church. whereas biblically, they are basically the same thing, if my understanding is correct.and maybe the MB church uses those term is even different ways, i dont know. but i know its confusing when we stray from biblical truth. and maybe also the Mb church has been wrong for the last 20 yrs. and teh seminary thing, all that tells me is that maybe men arent stepping up like we ought to be doing. but one doesnt need a big education to be a good leader either. those are my thoughts…if anyone cares haha

#13 from Adam on February 17, 2011

Nancy, i know. when i read it over, i was thinking that my statement didnt look very good, poor arangemnt of words, and i actually thought u would respond in the way u did, and rightfully so. i dont think that of u, but i also dont try to think i know anyone very well on here just by what they type. im sure u can understand that. i was simply trying to say that what the bible says, is more important then what our hearts say. its fully trustworthy, where our hearts can be decieving. so my apologies. what do u think about my statement regaring the bible vs our hearts?

#14 from Barb on February 17, 2011

I really value Lorne Cunningham’s book “Why Not Women”, Lorne is the founder of YWAM.  It uses biblical references to explain why we have held on to the misunderstandings of Women in the Church and what this means in todays world.  I often wonder how Men would feel if they were expected to worship in a church which had only women in leadership.  I think I would really enjoy attending such a church! Maybe that’s the next big revivial . . .

#15 from Nancy on February 18, 2011

Adam, no problem bro; it’s been good chatting with you off and on.

#16 from Sister in Christ on February 27, 2011

Jeff’ quote,” one of the most contentious issues in todays church…” We really need to ask ourselves simply, “Why is there such contention?”
1 JOHN 2:18-29,  most noteable are the lines which read from verse 27…“Christ has poured out his Spirit on you. As long as his Spirit remains in you, you do not need anyone to teach you. For his Spirit teaches you about everything, and what he teaches is true, not false. Obey the Spirit’s teaching, then, and remain in union with Christ…..”
Why is there so much contriversy over this decison if we,“Children of God”,have his Spirit and teachings written in/on our hearts? The answer is simple. If the Holy Spirit agreed with this issue, then we his “Children” would be in unison, or at peace also with this issue.
The Bible is very clear on teaching. Here is a short list….
1 John 2:27; 1 Sam 12:23; Is 2:3; Eph 4:21;  1 Thes 4:9; 2 Tim 3:16 and Phillipians 2:15-17,from Paul, which warn us that,” not all who preach God’s message do so for, or in the right spirit”. Here Paul was referring to people in the ministry of Christ.
My own personal story…..Over 20 years ago…...
while in the process of getting married. Our Pastor at the time, gave us a book to read by: Dr. James Dobson, on the topic of marriage.
I read the book and decided it did not relate to me. In fact, I was pretty sure Dr. Dobson did not understand women at all. In other words not a good book on marriage! A few short years ago while listening to 106.5—- There he was Dr. J. Dobson, discussing his marriage problems and difficulties. During the confession that he had had a rather tumultous marriage the reason given was he had not treated his wife with respect.
The point of this story….Don’t believe every thing you read when written by human beings no matter how well intended they are.
The Truth is found in Christ,  The Word of Life.

#17 from Teri on April 04, 2011

Jeff is the anointed / appointed authority to shepherd Northview.  We as the congregation he leads are all under his authority.  God will call him to account for how he shepherded the flock under his care. 

Repeatedly the bible calls us to obedience to God’s divine authority.  We are also called to be obedient to God’s delegated authority.  Jeff is God’s delegated authority over Northview.

Romans 13:1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

#18 from Rev.Colina Keiter on June 24, 2011

You are missing some excellent books in this category:
1. Women In The Church: A Biblical Theology Of Women In Ministry by Stanley J. Grenze & Denise Muir Kjesbo

2. Discovering Biblical Equality:Complementarity Without Hierarchy by Ronald W. Pierce & Rebecca Merrill Groothius, Contributing Editor Gordon D. Fee

3. Junia:the First Woman Apostle

4. Women Caught In The Conflict:The Culture war Between Traditionalism & Feminism by Rebecca Merrill Groothuis

5. Good News for Women by Rebecca Merrill Groothuis

6. Why Not Women? A Fresh Look At Women In Missions, Ministry, And Leadership bt Loren Cunningham & David Joel Hamilton with Janice Rogers

Please prayerfully revisit this vital issue.  If you are right on every other point of doctrine and miss this one you severely damage the Body of Christ and the proclamation of the gospel.

Shalom,

Colina

#19 from Dot and Mike Palmer Fry on September 22, 2011

One of the most informative and enlightened series we ever heard was given by Rev Clay Maclean of Pastoral Care Ministries while working with Leanne Payne. The series is entitled’ Women in the Bible ” We fully recommend it.
Dot and Mike