#1 from lil thielmann on January 10, 2011

well written and absorbed while we are ‘snowbirding’ in arizona…see you in april!  keep on keeping on jeff ! and support team !

#2 from Darryl Grandberg on January 11, 2011

Jeff, that’s a very good topic.

Smiles and high-fives all around upon seeing the sign “Sinners Welcome” above the church doorposts would rapidly dissipate if this was stricken off and revised to “Gossipers and Pornographers Welcome”.  I am also speaking to myself when I submit that the sign should say “People of Transformation”.

I believe that it’s a difficult chew to tell ourselves, as Men of Christ’s Church, that we are “repeat pornographers saved by grace”.  As a warning to us, this has been made intensely clear.  Therefore, I would humbly submit that the married men of Northview who are obviously blessed to have some of the most striking, attractive and glowing women on the face of the earth should immediately set off on a beeline path back to the wife of their youth.  It is the married men who should contact their government for change and support their church leaders who, every day, carry their cross and make it their task to fan the fires of change. 

For singles and men left alone in life, I am not qualified to give an answer.  I can only suggest that one should stay completely off of video content and any other webpage falsifying what represents a healthy relationship between a man and wife.  For those who will one day become bonded in marriage, the ideas will come soon enough by themselves.

Concerning change and working out our own salvation, there’s so much that is up to us and not the leaders of Northview.  Not just what’s been discussed, but so much more.  As attendees of Northview, we in response are required to lift our leaders up by the arms and legs in order for them to reach the top of the doorpost.  Only then, will they be able to nail up the sign “People of Transformation”.

Once that’s done throughout the Church, there will be countless, countless more reasons to fellowship at this and any other church.

#3 from Dorothea on January 11, 2011

Well put. I remember the first sermon I heard preached when I became a Christian and it was about “Why to go to Church.” The one reason that really resonated with me was because the rest of the congregation needs you. You don’t go to church for yourself only. You go to church to support the other people there.  As part of the body of Christ you add to the wholeness. The church, like the body, works better when all the parts are present.

#4 from Adam on January 12, 2011

i once was talking with a lady (non chrisitan) about church, and she said what i have heard others (even so called christians) say about the church…..that they dont like “organized religon”. so i asked this lady what she thinks about family get togethers on a weekly basis. and in those get togethers maybe u have lunch or some sort of meal. and also maybe u have discussion regarding your favorite whatever. and so forth. anyways, she thought that to be completely fine and even welcoming. so i told her basically thats what going to church is. a family getting together on a weekly basis where we share a meal, sometimes, discuss the God we love, and sing some songs about Him. then she had a bit of a hmmm moment. anyways, one thing i think we have to remember is that going to church isnt as much about me as i’d like it to be. but more about us, and even more so about Jesus. thanx

#5 from Nancy on January 17, 2011

Hi Jeff, how’s it goin’?
Jeff, I was going to disagree with your article or at least parts of it but I wasn’t feeling quite comfortable with that. Rather, I will appeal to the softer side of your nature on behalf of all of God’s chosen who are “cut off” from fellowship (church) as you define or see fellowship (church).
I currently do not attend an (organized) church but am one who prefers to meet with a few people in a small unorganized way or one on one. And, yes, I am growing, probably more so of late than in all of my “churched” years put together. Whether or not a person grows spiritually, after “leaving” the organized church would depend on their reason for leaving and what they do to compensate for the lack of the bigger body “fellowship”. I left (for the second time now) to find God in a deeper more meaningful way. You or any other pastor should not take offense to that or feel threatened by it but it should warm your heart to know there are those who just can’t tolerate a “milk toast” type of Christianity anymore. Many of us want more; we want depth, truth and fellowship with others that means something. We love God and we also love “the Church”. Don’t think of us as “leaving” the church. We want more for the church and we are willing to leave it to find it.
As we pray for our fellow believers within the “safe walls” of the Church, please pray for those who are outside of the larger body setting. We are here for one reason or another; for some those reasons are not good but for those I personally know and meet with from time to time, the reasons are legitimate and God honouring and our lives are moving forward and changing daily in Christ.
God bless your commitment to the local body of believers.

#6 from Adam on January 25, 2011

Nancy, if u dont mind, i’d like to comment on your thoughts regarding the church. first of all, im very glad that u meet with a small group of people an one on ones, i think that that is where people have the best opportunities to grow and develope relationships. in fact, more christians should devote time into doing just that. but even when u do meet, it is organized at some level. but a question i would have for u is did u have to leave the bigger chhurch to do what u did and are doing? maybe u did, i dont know. but why couldnt u have done both. been apart of a large group, and a small group. thats what i do, and alot of other people do. u dont have to answer these questions on here, as im sure they are personal reasons. the other question i would have is this, i dont think there is alot of passion in the church to get to know God on a deeper level, and yes the church at large is soft and safe, but how will that ever change if those who have a deep passion, leave the church at large? arent our gifts for the building of the body? i dont think we are called to isolate ourselves with a few others cause we dont like whats going on. but we are called to make a difference. thanx

#7 from Nancy on January 25, 2011

Oh, oh, now I have to expose myself; I hate that but someone once said “honestly is the best policy”. I’d just better not plan on winning a popularity contest. 

Here goes! This is what I don’t like about “normal church”: (Please don’t beat me up!)
- It’s boring.
- It’s plastic.
- You can be very isolated in a large church particularly depending on your marital status; it feels worse to go and feel alone after a service. (Divorce groups and singles groups are not the answer; not for this lady anyway.)
- 30% of the Bible is prophetic; rarely do I hear a sermon in a non Pentecostal church addressing the prophetic parts of scripture in a sermon and I want to know what’s on the radar. What we have to look forward to is so unbelievably exciting; how can we not talk about it.
- Church should be the most electric (and I don’t mean hysterical)thing we do during the week but that would clearly involve restructuring (major) and involve more than the preacher, worship leader and announcements; church is the people. When people are just spectators of a same old same old production week after week their bones get rickety, arthritis sets in and any movement hurts
- Yes, our gifts are to be used to build up the body, not tear them down. We need to look after each other and equip each other better.
- Personally, I am making a difference within a small circle of people whereas I tried but couldn’t in the larger church setting.

Oh about meeting in a small group; how much effort does it take to meet in a coffee shop? That’s about as organized as I want to get, for now anyway.

Thanks for asking Adam. Hope I didn’t overwhelm you.
Nancy

#8 from Adam on January 26, 2011

Nancy, there is so much joy in church services. people prasing, singing, worshiping, giving, serving, baptisms, communion, learning. of course u would never see all those happenig at the same time everytime, but most of them are happening every week. i see it, and right im attending a church that i find boring and not very challenging (not Northview). i guess i just dont see it in scripture that not being with the large body is ok because of how we feel about it, or particulars that we are not happy with. we are called to bear one anothers burdens, not leave because of them. early in Acts, not sure of the verse right now, but it says that all the beleiver were in one place. i just really think that ur letting the things u dont like, take away from what can be such a blessing for u and others. i think ur depriving yourself of the joy of fellowship with more of Gods people, and ur depriving others of fellowship with u. and one thing to remember, just because its boring for one, doesnt mean its boring for everyone. what kind of a church would we be, if we only went when it suited our fancy? in my mind, not a very loving or devoted one. as a whole, we need to understand that the church is not for me, as much as it is for us, and even more for Him. i’d be interested in what u tried, and why it didnt work, but again, u dont have to answer that. take care

#9 from Thomas on January 26, 2011

Just a different perspective Nancy. Ill be referencing your points. Please do not take offense. I am quite brash, so please prepare yourself.

-I would find you boring. And your small circle of friends. Most likely anyways. What would you say were i to snub you because of this?

-Again, being the good little cynic i am, I would probably find you all rather plastic as well. Sure, you may believe yourself to be less so than ‘northview’, but i fail to see how standing next to a midget makes you a giant. Everyone to some degree is fake and manufactured. What makes it worse is when people dont realize it.

-Well, if i cared more about ‘fitting in’ maybe i would notice.

-70% isnt. Nobody can tell you exactly whats going to happen, to presume one can is not biblical. These fellows who say “Ok, this is going to happen, then this, followed by 4 years of this, and then this” are blowing smoke. There is no way confidence in their interpretation matches their insight. Personally, i think its all done. Christ could come back tomorrow and all scripture would have been fulfilled. Either way, this timetable laid out by some is nothing short of bullocks. Not saying they cannot be right, as that would make me like them. But the degree of certainty with which they preach such vapidity is what is silliness.

- It sounds like you want a more ‘physically active’ church service. Want to know what i want? Philosophical lectures. Constantly. No worship at all. None, I dont like it. I also want christians to think more and stop acting like philosophical leprosy patients. But you see, the things which i want arent exactly whats best. To some degree they are good, but there is value in the opposite perspective, in this case yours. Being likely a polar opposite im sure there are things i could learn from you i wouldnt were i to surround myself with people who are rather similar to me. Point made by Bucknam. Differences, id even argue contention(healthy contention), are a good thing.

-Meh.

-Lets just be honest. The chruch is cliquey and pockety. Nobody is friends with everyone. Instead there are different ‘pockets’ of people. Generally people find the ‘pocket’ which most appeases their personal preference and make attempts to ‘join’. It is, exactly what you are doing, just on a larger scale. I would argue Northview is actually a very small church, or more accurately comprised of many small churches. Which is probably not a good thing mind you…

Point being, is that you believe yourself to be doing something radically different than northviewians. I disagree. I think you are doing the exact same thing. You gather, with a small pocket of people, amongst a sea of other people (strangers, employees of coffee shops etc etc). At northview, people gather in a small pocket of people, amongst a sea of other people (strangers, employees of the church, superficial acquaintances etc etc). Please explain the radical difference. I dont see it.

I wanted to disagree with Bucknam, but he is right. His recent sermons have really hit home with me. Im not rich with fiat currency, but am so in other areas. So when he said “rich” i changed the word into the area wherein I excel. When he said ‘dont horde money’, i heard ‘dont horde that which you are rich in’. Simple fact of the matter is Nancy, your objections are understandable. Truth is, most christians drive me bonkers and annoy the crap out of me. But, im sure its a 2 way road, and i likely annoy many of them. But, besides that point, what about what you have that you can offer them? What about some spiritual truth or cultural insight you can provide them which in theory could potentially benefit their life? What about what you can do for the ‘plastic masses’ not just what the plastic masses can do for you? Do you not see it as incessantly narcissistic to think only of yourself? To do that which takes into consideration only self appeasement? You have something to offer, and you are robbing people of it because of selfishness. Church is annoying, and can suck a lot of times. Thats life. People are annoying and can suck a lot of the time. Even your ‘close circle’. Dont believe me? Move in with them. Its life. Trust me on this one, isolating is not the answer. I have done that for a long time, looking back, i have nothing but regrets.

#10 from Nancy on January 26, 2011

Hey, I’m so happy to see the passion! Good on you both! I’m delighted whenever I see any youth excited about church but I’d be more excited if I sensed you really cared about those who don’t get it.

The things we are discussing though, is the stuff which hundreds of books have been written on and nothing I say is going to make a dint in how I and many others feel. In my post I really didn’t touch on anything significant; the few things I did point out are things of personal preference and are really not important in relation to the big picture. It’s not about me and what I prefer, I absolutely agree with that. If I were going to discuss in detail my reasons for leaving, I would have to write yet another book and God forbid another book should be written on this subject.

I like Jeff’s opening statement in his blog. In fact, let’s pretend his blog ended after the 2nd paragraph. Why don’t we look at the criticisms that come from the youth (for now let’s leave us older guys out of this) and instead of defending the church, let’s talk about how we can “go out amongst them” and win them over or join them in how they feel comfortable meeting with God and others. I know Northview is involved in this to a certain degree. I’m not sure to what extent.

The world has changed. I don’t know if you guys are around many youth that are from outside of the church. Their world is crazy! I can’t even describe how crazy it is but there is no way we can ever relate unless we boldly walk into their world and serve on their turf. They just don’t get us and yes, they think we are everything that Jeff says. The odd young person will come and might fit in depending on who is supporting them but on the whole a young person unfamiliar with “our ways” would never make it and why would we ever expect them to.

Kudos to those kids that want to go for that nice walk in the woods or go to a coffee shop and talk about God! Awesome! Find a way to join them instead of trying to make them meet God on our turf.

That’s all I really care about. Everything else just seems so insignificant.

God bless!

#11 from Thomas on January 27, 2011

Who’s defending the church? Im not. The church sucks. Its run by people… who suck. But wanna know something weird? You suck. So do I. Thats what im saying. Not that the church isnt full of problems. It is, and the problem is the church leaders. You could replace them with people who were more “spiritually open” (which is where i think you are coming from) and i can assure you, there would still be problems. Just new problems. Why? Because those people suck too. Christian theology is entirely centered around humanities inherent suckage. Its life. We all suck, but we all suck in different ways. In a church hopefully i can suck less than someone at something and help them not suck so much at said thing. Hopefully they suck less at something than me, and can do so likewise.

I can assure you, i am tremendously more cynical than you could ever likely be. WAY more. I still think Jeff is right, and im pretty sure it wouldnt be that difficult to dismantle any argument the contrary. But i agree, organized religion totally sucks. So do all governments. So do unions. So do private corporations. So do small groups centered around some theme… Wait a minute…..... im starting to see a pattern…. Its almost like we ruin everything we touch… its like humanity as a whole totally sucks.

#12 from Darryl on January 27, 2011

As for myself, I receive real energy every week from Jeff, Ezra and the leaders at Northview.  As for you, Nancy, there’s absolutely nothing unscriptural about a small gathering of believers meeting in His name in order to spiritually grow.  It emulates and is in line with the requirements of the 1st Century Church. 

You sound like a neat person, and God bless you.  You need not to, but should you ever want to become part of a larger congregation of believers, they would be privileged to have you.

#13 from Adam on January 27, 2011

i agree that we should meet people where they are, and not try to bring them into a church, but go to them and be the church. but i didnt know thats what we were talking about. but i would say that youth or young adult christians who dont go to church, is because either they dont understand why its important, and they were probably never given a good example to follow. so going to talk to them and being where they are is super important, but so is showing them. and depending now on if we are talking about chrisitans, or non christains, thats a whole different discussion.

#14 from Nancy on January 27, 2011

Thanks Darryl, I’ll take that as a word of much needed encouragement.
Thomas, no one has ever told me I suck except my kids. Hmmm, maybe you’re on to something. lol! And no, I’m not coming from where you think I’m coming from. Don’t spend too much time trying to figure it out okay.

#15 from Thomas on January 28, 2011

>>>> And no, I’m not coming from where you think I’m coming from. Don’t spend too much time trying to figure it out okay.<<<<

I disagree. I think i do. I wouldnt over complicate that which does not warrant it. You believe that the church is not just full of, but run by pharisees. Hypocrites who believe god is a tradition to be practiced, not a reality to be lived. People who stunt anything spiritual so much that you believe ‘elvis has left the building’. A church full of and run by people who see ‘christianity’ as sinning as little as possible, not seeking a real objective god as much as possible. Shown rather clearly by the disposition of modern christians. So concerned about appearing righteous and always saying the right thing that they have become mind numbingly fake, and consequently pretentious, judgemental, pious, and pretty much every single negative stereotype associated with christians. Which are, for the most part, entirely justified. Constantly wearing masks, pandering to an audience, gossiping, back biting, and being the oh so stereotypically pretentious jerks the world has grown to hate. People who see christianity as a practice, and consequently make no real attempts to seek or ‘see’ and objective, real, living and breathing god. Entirely oblivious to the notion that their worldview, is actually an atheistic one.

Welcome to the dark continent Nancy. You are living in arguably the most spiritually stunted place in the world. Full of people (north americans) so incredibly dual minded that the term ‘bi-polar’ could honestly be attributed to most if not all rather accurately (ESPECIALLY christians here)

So, i get it. Go where the legit christians are. Where are they? Well, they are leaving the churches. I have watched it happen. Time and time again. They are leaving by the masses. I dont disagree with you entirely Nancy, i just shudder to think of what will happen when the last one steps out the doors to not return. You see a reformation, i see the systematic dismantling of the christian body.

So, again, i do get it. Yet i still disagree. To some degree.

#16 from Nancy on January 28, 2011

Thomas, you said, “I just shudder to think of what will happen when the last one steps out the doors to not return. You see a reformation, i see the systematic dismantling
of the christian body.“

Jesus said, to Peter in Matthew 16: 18 “...upon this rock, I will build my Church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it”.  Who do you think is right? The “Church”, in whatever form that takes as long as it is in line with scripture, isn’t going anywhere; we will become stronger and a clearer witness to the world,as the Church is refined and focused on the work God has given us to do.

What is happening in the Church is a healthy thing and I greatly respect and appreciate Jeff’s openness in allowing these kinds of discussions. They are healthy discussions to have; let’s keep them healthy and respect each other at the same time.

My honest prayer for the people of Northview and other churches in this community is that we as Christians grow to become leaders in the community and people will flock to churches by the hundreds because of the love they see and to worship and experience God in a very real and deep way.
That’s who I really am and that’s how I think and feel. If I have portrayed another image of myself, I am deeply sorry and ask for your forgiveness.

#17 from Darryl on January 28, 2011

Thomas, you have heard of John 3:16.  I will also quote Malachi 3:16 made to the faithful remnant of Israel:

(ver 16 to the remnant) Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the LORD and honoured his name.

Earlier in the text, you’ll note that this is God’s curt response to those who were NOT the remnant and say, “It is futile to serve God.”

Thomas, what do we gain by expressing futility?  I mean, you are making me depressed.  So let’s talk, and arrive at some purpose, which it appears that one other person in this blog has already found.  Let’s talk and I’ll only let you respond if it’s not made out of utter futility.

1.  How can men treat women with more respect, particularly in the home setting?
2.  On that note, what are we to do with pornography?
3.  What more can we do about abortion without incessantly tsk-tsk-ing?
4.  Should we more effectively combine Church and state?

Have concrete answers ready instead of expressing futility.

On Vision TV at 5 pm on Sundays, my wife and I regularly watch the sermon of Dr. David Jeremiah, who is the Senior Pastor of Shadow Mountain Church in San Diego.  As the broadcast plays out, one would think that the Word at times is expressed in such an unemotive way that a mere dimple grin would just as well slow down the whole process.  I mean, he’s driven to get the Word out like nothing else.

Over the numerous times I’ve watched Dr. Jeremiah, I’ve noticed him choke up only once.  This is by memory, but I’ll quote him the best I can:  “...You know, over my years of pastoring, I’ve counselled women who are deeply despondent over their decision to have gone through with an abortion during some time in their past.  They ask me, ‘Pastor, how can I ever be forgiven for this?’  I tell them, ‘You know our Lord?  Well, he already has.’  ‘And the moment that you arrive in heaven, you’ll have your little one come up to you and say ‘Mommy, that’s OK’”

So Thomas, when you’ve arrived at Point 3 above, don’t say plant another 2000 little white crosses.  Here’s what I can offer, before you may answer - and it comes after Robyn Dueck’s blog, which is the most excellent blog that I’ve seen in a while.  When you’re a Dad, tell your 14 year old daughter that you love her and will protect her under any circumstance.  Tell her that if a 15 year old boy approaches her and wants to plug into something, offer him a light socket and make sure it’s plugged in.  And, when you’re a Dad, tell your young son to make only the wisest of decisions.

Thomas, I know that you’re a kid, and we love you.  But drop the futility, and honour His name.

#18 from Nancy on January 29, 2011

Thanks Darryl, for the reference to Malachi 3:16. I’ve read through Malachi numerous times but have never really seen that verse; it brought tears to my eyes and I’ve been thinking about it a lot. (Talking to each other about things of God is a deep passion of mine. Few seem to have time for it or want to go there.) Also, I love the minor and major prophets. I love the way there’s no beating around the bush; these guys just crack the whip and we are hardly able to catch our breath between painful glimpses as to who we really are apart from God’s grace and how we struggle so hard to become a righteous people of God.

#19 from Thomas on January 29, 2011

Futility? How is it futile? That makes very little sense.

Lets try a different approach since last message wasnt posted.

This is a story about a guy named Thomas. You see, Thomas is an entrepreneurial astronomer. One day, while gazing at the stars, Thomas notices something. Perhaps he saw it in the reflection off hubble, perhaps it was a random fluctuation of space, whatever the cause, he knows what he saw. He saw an asteroid the size of china heading towards earth. He quickly calculates the velocity at which it travels and calculates that it will impact earth in 3 weeks. A meteor of that size would be devastating… not even bacteria would survive.

So then. Thomas now knows the inevitably cruel fate of the world. The day after this discovery, he gets up and goes to work. In fact, he stresses out about his investment portfolio and how he is going to come up with mortgage payments in coming months. He comes home. Watches some television. Perhaps reads a book about the comet. He also spends some time which he has delegated to thinking about the comet. The next morning, he reads tidbits from his book about the comet, then continues on his day.

Throughout the day, perhaps Thomas will mention the comet a few times. When of course, it is politically correct to do so. But he never tells it as it is, as that would offend people. And he surely does not pester everyone, despite the benefits knowledge of the comet would bring, because he knows people dont want to be bothered. He is after all a polite man.

There is a group of astronomers who also know about this comet. He gathers with them once a week and reads about the comet. Talks about it. Thinks about it. They sing songs, and contemplate the implications this comet will bring to existence. But only for a while, after all, there is work to be done. Thomas thinks about joining a small group outside that one weekly gathering, to be more ‘into’ comet things.

Knowledge of the inevitable has rendered Thomas somewhat generous. He helps out when he can, but it surely isnt the soul purpose of his existence. He is a busy man after all with many responsibilities.

Thomas’ mother and family live far away, and he loves them very much. But he knows they dont believe a comet is coming, and when he told them, they didnt believe him. So, he keeps things formal and innocuous. He doesnt spend any more time talking with them than he did prior to his discovery. After all, he is a busy man with many responsibilities.

All in all, Thomas is just a regular guy.

Now. Wouldnt you think that Thomas, who had knowledge of the impending destruction of the earth in but a short while, would be living drastically different than people who didnt have that knowledge? If he truly believed that comet was coming, how could he possibly continue on life as it was? Why is his life so remarkably similar to people who are unaware of it? Logic would dictate that if Thomas actually believed that comet was coming, his life would undoubtedly be transformed in a way words cannot express. The way in which he interacted with people would be radically altered. Everything about his life would be radically transformed, and it would be instantly noticeable. People would call him peculiar. He does after all believe the world will end in 3 weeks. That knowledge would make Thomas so drastically different from people who knew not what he did. There would be no denying it, by anyone. Clearly something should be different about Thomas.

“Faith without works is dead” No, not that works justify us. Its just that the natural consequence of one believing the gospel is a radical change. Radical in the truest sense of the world. So radical, that people cannot explain such a persons, nor their behavior.

What would be both frightening as it would be tragic, is that Thomas has managed to convince himself that he actually believed the comet was coming. Reading about it, and talking about it on occasion somehow justified that belief. Oblivious of course, that inexorable disdain towards his old life should be present were he to believe a truth with such sever ramifications. But no, he believes that he believes that which all evidence shows he does not believe. Perhaps, such delusionment would not be so prevalent were he to not focus so much on the daily activities of the comet. Instead, were he to dwell on the implication of it, and really let it sink in and let that belief radically alter how he views the world, and consequently change those next 3 weeks in a way none could have predicted.

Instead, he continues on. Reading about it everyday, and going to groups to talk about it. He knows it should be the focal point of his life, so he convinces himself that it is. To a degree of moderation of course. After all, Thomas is a busy man with many responsibilities.

Guess how this story ends.

PS Hate, bigotry and intolerance predominantly come from seeing people as part of a group, and not as an individual. Black, white, socialist, conservative, old, young, keynsian, austrian, smart, stupid, beautiful, ugly etc etc. When we see people as the category we place them in, hate and intolerance inevitably follows. Last time i checked, we are all on a level playing field, and in this together. I feel we far too much, even as christians, do too much to perpetuate the categorization of persons.

#20 from Adam on January 29, 2011

i have enjoyed being a small part of, and reading this discussion. thank u to all who have shared thier thoughts, and being open of thier views. but, i have to say, im not even sure what we are talking about anymore. should we be involved in weekly gathering of the church?...yes. should we look to grow outside the church in a small group or something?....yes. does scripture teach this?....yes. so let the word of God guide us, and follow the spirit, if it lines up with what the word says. Amen?

#21 from Darryl on January 29, 2011

Thomas, you may be describing the Last Days - and I do appreciate your empathy for the state of our society.  But what I am saying is try not to focus on the overall picture all the time, particularly if it is dismal and seemingly overpowering.  Instead, take on the practicalities one at a time.  The big issue today is protecting our youth, so that one day even a 6 year old can safely query the net to learn about doggies and kitties.  But, further to my last message, there are so many lonely, lonely seniors in our churches.  As the remnant, let’s talk.  Open up so to speak.  Make task forces and think tanks out of computer geeks and other believers who don’t even know how to begin.  See how we can more effectively communicate with our law makers to change some pressing issues.  Then we’ll step and stumble and step and bumble, but step by step we’ll go.  If you could just combine your sense of urgency and talent for writing with the right people, you just may be able to make a change like no other.  Think about what Nancy said, and my small offering, and God bless you.  I am off this blog.

Nancy, I hope that just you and I read this blog and Jeff keeps it quiet, but I’m getting fond of you.  Doesn’t take much between believers, does it?  Just a few words.  God bless.

#22 from Nancy on January 29, 2011

Thomas, I don’t have a clue what you are talking about but my son is a comic artist and he writes his own scripts ...  your story sounds like one of his scripts. Maybe I should hook you up with him and you could write for him. He’s always got some ‘alien from space’ story going but it’s usually got a better ending than how your story ends.

I agree with Darryl, it’s getting a bit much. I much prefer politeness and I really was looking forward to having a decent discussion on this subject but I’m finding all of this nonsense is a little too much. If I was your mom or grandma, you’d get a whooping from me by now. I think that’s even in line with scripture isn’t it?

#23 from Darryl on January 29, 2011

I’m back to provide a comment concerning our Great Commission.  Build this and they will come.  Or come back.  Thanks Nancy, Thomas and Jeff.  Thanks.

#24 from Thomas on January 30, 2011

Darryl. Going to respond the most efficient way possible.

>>>>But what I am saying is try not to focus on the overall picture all the time, particularly if it is dismal and seemingly overpowering.  Instead, take on the practicalities one at a time.<<<<

I differ with you here. Perhaps i could benefit from such a perspective, but as it stands now, i cannot endorse this mentality. Seems to easy to lose sight of the forest through the trees with such a view. Perhaps the phrase ‘all the time’ could be useful though.

>>>> But, further to my last message, there are so many lonely, lonely seniors in our churches.<<<<

Worse things to be in life than lonely, no? One less distraction if you ask me. Coddling a persons desire to be continually enveloped with what they define as positive emotions is near the bottom of my list of things which concern me.

>>>>Make task forces and think tanks out of computer geeks and other believers who don’t even know how to begin.  See how we can more effectively communicate with our law makers to change some pressing issues.  Then we’ll step and stumble and step and bumble, but step by step we’ll go<<<<

Much like the story, ill use a loose metaphor with parallels and just hope that you get what im saying. A brilliant economist once said “The curious task of economics, is to reveal to man how little he truly knows, about what he imagines he can design.”

>>>>may be able to make a change like no other.<<<<

See above.

Nancy

>>>>If I was your mom or grandma, you’d get a whooping from me by now. I think that’s even in line with scripture isn’t it?<<<<

No its not. “Rod” literally means discipline. Dont spoil the child by not disciplining them is the verse, not dont spoil the child by not hitting them. As a person who grew up abused, i take much offence.

Its not getting a bit much. Kind of important stuff we are dealing with, no? In my opinion, it hasnt gone far enough.

Jeepers. The sentiment expressed here is what is fueling christian apathy, and making our church culture what it is. When social adherences become a higher priority than discussions (all be it tough ones) about things of eternal significance, i see very little hope for us.

#25 from Nancy on January 30, 2011

I agree, I really did enjoy this discussion and Thomas I really do like you; you remind me of my comic artist son. He thinks and talks just like you and keeps me smiling. You have a brilliant mind and I agree with Darryl’s comments to you. Maybe we’ll talk on another blog.
Thanks for your comments Darryl and Adam.
cu all lt8r.

#26 from Thomas on February 01, 2011

In all fairness, when you said lonely, i presumed you meant single. Not widowed. There is a big difference. I feel much pity for the widowed, and very little for the single. It was a misinterpretation.

>>>ou’ve also left me unaffected as to your plan for taking care of our youth, sidelining porn away from our living rooms<<<<

This is just common sense. If you worry about your children accessing porn on tv and computers, get rid of your tv and computers. Keep a laptop in your room. Keep an eye on whose houses they go to after school, make sure there is adult supervision and no computers in private rooms etc etc. ITs not complicated. Be a responsible parent.

>>>>and just plain loving others where they are at.<<<<

Could you define love for me? Does loving people involve ensuring what you do never causes them to feel what they define as negative emotions? Does loving people involve telling them what they want to hear? What christ loving in his contentious disposition towards the jewish leaders?

>>>>So, point by point, what is your plan to protect and edify the Church?  I say it again - give me every point by every point<<<<

The fact you ask for point by point explanations as to how to introduce formulaic measures which will ‘force’ the hand of god proves that you dont get what im saying. The issues, the problems, are merely a symptom. Yes, the church has many issues, but those issues in themselves are merely a symptom of a deeper affliction. Fixing them would be like giving morphine to a person with cancer. The issues arise, because western churches have abandoned god and truths for a hybrid of society(based on atheism) and christianity. Take the beneficial aspects of church which infringe not upon society, and the beneficial aspects of society which infringe not upon the church, put them together, and come away with some distorted bi-polar psuedo religion. 2 contrary beliefs both being held as true, yet because we trim them both down and combine them, it is difficult to see. We say we are serving god, but generally, we are not.

This is the problem. Fix this, and the rest will follow. Its not about what we do wrong, its about what we believe which invariably causes us to do wrong. Actions come from pre-existing beliefs, not the other way around.

#27 from Nancy on February 01, 2011

Darryl, I live with my 96 year old father. He has the same history with his wife as your dad. If I wasn’t there for him he would have died of loneliness by now or burned his condo down or something tragic. Living alone as an elderly person is unbelievably painful for them. I’m ashamed of myself that I don’t care more. There is so much ministry to elderly people; it’s on the back burner for me but I know it’s around the corner. Right now I’m focusing on getting used to all my free time having just retired after 47 years of working. As a now (almost official) senior I am trying to find my new place in life; haven’t quite figured it out yet but am working on some things.

I’ll be thinking about those points to consider as well, so thanks.

Gotta go!

#28 from Thomas on February 02, 2011

Again they didnt post my response, dont know why.

First off, i thought you were talking about singles, not widows. Big difference, and i feel much sympathy for the widowed, and virtually none who are lonely because they are single. Singles was brought up before and ... well… it is a northview blog. So i assumed thats what you were talking about.

Protecting children? Really? Thats the responsibility of the parent. The answer to that question is mere common sense. You talk as if you are asking incredibly deep and complex questions, when really the answers are incredibly simple.

Point by point as to how to protect the church? Protect it from what? That is backwards to scripture. The church isnt a fragile entity to be hid away from the big scary world, but instead supposed to boldly go out into it. I fail to see how or why we should “protect” the church from anything.

I dont think we can do anything to edify the church. That is gods business. I personally believe the goal for us to is simply acknowledge the need for edification. Most if not all have some degree of delusionment/pride/arrogance/christian tradition which inhibits us from fully accepting the notion that there is something wrong with us as christians. So, im sure one could make formulaic arguments against those barriers, however, im not so certain that will accomplish much. I say pray. There is no more difficult a missionary field than a church (especially one wherein generations were raised in the church), so pray and pray and pray and pray and pray. When done, pray some more. Forget praying, plead with god. Beg him, pester him, hound him, get mad at him. Care enough about the state of the church to get angry. Apathy will accomplish nothing.

#29 from Darryl on February 02, 2011

Nancy -
...and it was a great honour to talk with you.

#30 from Darryl on February 03, 2011

Thomas – in response to your last blogs:

Protect the Church which is the Body of Christ—- Thomas, why do we need Christian armour?

—Proverbs 4:23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.
—Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
—Revelation 2:4-7 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favour: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Children—-
You’d mentioned to be a responsible parent and release ourselves of computers and TV’s.  That may be a solution, but what about us loving the world and other families?  Computers and televisions are here to stay, so we must use Christian sense to adapt to this, and protect not only our family, but others as well.

Note that ‘Anyone’ in verse 6 includes everyone.  Everyone including our Internet Service Providers and standing government representatives.  For the sake of our children, addressing and combating porn should also be made by these channels and avenues.  I’m sure you’ll agree.

—-Matthew 18:1-6   1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Edification—- or us building up the Church.  In comment to what you said earlier - I will find you a scripture once I close my gaping jaw.

Thomas, you have mentioned prayer, prayer, prayer and pleading beyond that.  Very good as that’s the first constructive thing that I’ve heard from you.  Now take a long pause…  After your prayer and pleading - what is God telling you?  Pause again…  There must be some action.  In your obvious contempt for the Church from numerous earlier blogs, I have learned from you that we are apathetic to the 9th degree.  But beyond that?
Thomas, we need wailing prophets.  But wailing and wailing with no plan is not His Plan.  There must be a plan of which you offer me none.  I will no longer look to you, but will look to myself and others instead.  You will find no one looking to you. 

I believe that Christians must have a stronger voice to influence government and Internet Service Providers to help our families, by changing the content of the electronic stream entering our houses via internet and television.  This is a movement started by others.  I believe in edifying ourselves.  This is scriptural.  I believe in never having to be in a position to choose or not choose life.  A father hugging his daughter into her teens and 40’s is a much more powerful image to me than typical anti-this and anti-that posters which can serve to heighten despondency.  Change our thinking.  Create posters showing fathers loving and instructing their daughters and sons.  This will not continue to deepen the divide and make baggage into cargo ships.  I believe in more closely liaising with governments for the sake of our Christian beliefs.  James Dobson believes that this is God’s Plan.  I believe it too.  Dr. Dobson rightfully struggles every day for his God.  I believe in this.  So did Jacob, who struggled with God and with humans and overcame.  Overcame, Thomas.  I wish I could be more like this.  There’s so much more.

Do you want to overcome?  As opposed to the man who became Israel, the only thing you struggle with is how to verbalize calling the Church more useless and apathetic.  I won’t even reiterate what you’ve called the Church in an earlier blog.  But recently and in your own words, you say that the Church is showing the ‘symptom of a deeper affliction’ and that trying to fix this would be like ‘giving morphine to a person with cancer’ blah-blah-blah.  Well, no wonder that YOU state that we’ve ‘abandoned God and truths’ and have formed a ‘bi-polar psuedo religion’ and that we are ‘generally not serving God.’  Because you and others like you offer no solution.  No way out.  Nothing but wilderness.  That is why I’ve asked you time and again for your idea for a solution.  Not just throwing out TV’s and computers, but the solution for other believers and the rest of the world as well.

If you really want to be the Remnant, then start acting like it.

You provide many comments in these blogs not backed by scripture, and I believe that I’ve offered you some scripture that show that you are not always aware of what you postulate.  Refer to your Bible 101 notes and continually back up your 1st and 2nd Opinions with scripture.  There’s another blog which I’ve told you the same.

When you’re attending Bible 101, I will be across the hall entering Christianity 101.  I’m very, very excited but enter knowing that I, at very best, only have a part answer for his Plan.  So, with my head downcast and feet heavy I make my way to the desk at the very back.  The bell rings.  He calls.

I look up.

#31 from Moderator on February 05, 2011

We’re going to call this topic closed.
For anyone who has been following it… You may want to watch this video from the last leadership meeting.
http://northview.org/about_us/media/