#1 from Nancy Williams on November 15, 2009

Hi Jeff,
Welcome back to the world of blogging and congrats on being a papa again! I hope you and your family are doing well.

To answer the first part of your post:
I blog to find people who like to get into detailed discussions;it seems people who think deeply are rare so I go where I can to find them. Also I don’t think super well on my feet; I like to think things through before I contribute to a deep conversation so I personally find blogging stimulating.

Second part (my opinion only):
I think it’s vitally important to think deeply for several reasons. If we don’t:
1) We have potential to become the prey of others if we think shallow and let others do our thinking for us.
2) We have the tendency to put ourselves, others and God in a box.
3) We are vulneable to having a toxic faith or pre-conceived ideas about Christianity and God.

Philippians 2:12 says ...“work out your salvation ...” This is speaking both collectively and individually I believe and that involves deep thinking and spending time with God.

It would be irresponsible for me or any believer to trust our Christian lives to, or follow leaders who are not deep thinkers. We owe it to ourselves to think through our faith deeply.

Take care.

#2 from adam on November 15, 2009

in agree with that very much. in school, we just went over childhood development. and in that module, we talked about the media, what it does to our children’s creative development and the affects it has on the future of society. we talked about how instead of buying a doll for a child, and the child making it dance using their creative mind, they make a doll that dances on its own by a push of a button. they throw out the thinking part. the things that we have made to enhance life, and maybe make it easier, are the very things that are destroying our abilities to think and use our brains the way they should be used. now, i think that this way of life filters into the church. how many of us think we dont need to study scripture. why? well the pastor will do it, then he can tell me what i should be doing. or, i just listen to the radio, thats how i get my spiritual growth. some may laugh, but ive had friends actually say that. yes, those are all good things, but they will never be a good substitute for disciplining ourselves, studying the word, and meditating on it. using the other things more for correcting and conformation. i know i have a tough time being creative, and along with that comes the difficulty of applying scripture. i can study, know what it means, but the lack of creativity to apply it, can haunt me. lets not have it haunt our children too. thanx

#3 from Shaun on November 16, 2009

As a self proclaimed deep thinker , as well as a self proclaimed ambassador of awesomeness , i tell myself i have a say on this subject. I personally think that this issue is attributed to the character and intellect of the individual not the means through which his character and intellect is perceived. This will sound cynical , but what this person has observed is in my opinion something which was always present in the masses , he is just now noticing it. And in all fairness , arent you being a little harsh on the internet. I would argue that the cumulative sum of what has become western life appears almost as if it was designed to promote apathy respect philosophy and reason. Everything about our culture screams of a life of redundancy , routine , and entertainment…. one where people do the daily grind , and in their spare time are distracted by all the flashy lights and cool sounds , only to return to the grind. Its all a distraction , if not created to be one , used as one. A famous quote from a brilliant man is this “People generally do not form opinions outside the confines of what is dictated by his society , most people are not even capable of forming such opinions.” Now that is not word for word but the concept is conveyed. I agree with this. I dont think picking on the internet and using it as a means to explain away the apparent philosophical lethargy rampid in our society and church is fair , if it wasnt the internet , it would be something else…. flashing lights are everywhere. One last point , on the topic of non thinking christians. A popular theme prevelant in pop culture right now is to see christians as intellectual lemmings… idiots. It is everywhere and it drives me batty. But in defense of those promoting those views…. they have a good point. I dont wanna be the one to say it , but christians from my experience seem less inclined to question the nature of reality than one who is not a believer. I have theories as to why this is , but i will not state it. I dunno man , im kinda rambling here , but i dont think, as you say, undisciplined minds are our problems as christians. I think generally most people are incapable of asking questions outside the realms of what has become their “truth”.... but if people realized that their conceptions of the very fabric of “truth” and “reality” was formed through contradictive and unrealiable things i think they would have to start asking more questions…. but people dont see it ... .and they do not inquire…. too busy…. too many flashing lights….... plus .... not everyone is going to be a thinker… i know some christians who are the most dull witted individuals i have ever met , but they are some of the most wonderfully pleasant and kind people i have ever met too…. i think the few in this area have the capacity to speak for the rest… at least i like to think so.

#4 from Shaun on November 21, 2009

I just wanted to clarify something as it could be perceived i didn’t understand what you said , but actually i just assumed my mindset to be obvious and thus preceded accordingly, oblivious to the possibility that the mindset from which i speak is not obvious. What this fellow is saying is that the means through which we acquire knowledge (internet) is affecting the depth of knowledge acquired. A generation of surface knowledged folk with no deep comprehension of any one or few things. What you Mr.Bucknam seemed to do was take this and make the claim that the manner with which we acquire knowledge affects our capacity to reason and desire to philosophize. I believe the problem with that is that the retention of knowledge in no way shape or form has any relevance to reasoning and philosophical ambitions. In fact i believe quite the contrary , that retention of mass amounts of knowledge inhibits ones desire to question the nature of reality and truth. So that is the foundational belief from which i said what i did .... not saying im right , this is just an opinion.

#5 from lornewel on November 22, 2009

I don’t think the internet is solely or even mostly the cause of “thinklessness.” Stupidity has been around a long time, as have the desire for pleasure, ease and relying on somebody else to do the hard stuff. In my lifetime of 66 years we moved from radio to TV to internet. We moved from hard brittle 78 RPM records, from mono to stereo, from 8s to vinyl LP’s, to 8-track tapes, then cassettes, CDs, DVDs, MP3s,etc. \but human nature did not change.

With the internet, I can go more widely and more quickly than in a bookstore or library and I very seldom “surf.” I go online for certain purposes - to receive and send email communications, to participate in discussions on the MB Forum (Nancy, you should try this), to uses online Bible versions, concordances and references, see who is on Facebook, etc. If you go to Chapters or Barnes & Noble you will find people who are surfing the magazine racks and book shelves. The internet is another method in a different atmosphere to do something similar.

I think we have always had a need to be challenged to think critically and to learn. It may have been easier to do in a time when society pressured kids to respect authority more, like their school teachers. The internet is a medium. It can help thinkers with their pursuits just as it can help layabouts with theirs. For my part, I thought I was a pretty good student in my small town high school, but I encounter students today who blow me away with their creativity and accomplishments. And it is not just a few. Even my own grandchildren who are in an isolated little missionary academy in Mexico are way ahead of where I was at their ages. I can can have deep adult conversations with the older teen ones about philosophy and theology, the implications of scripture passages, etc.

Some personalities are bent toward rumination while others who are action-oriented are put off by being married to one, waiting for practical stuff to get done while the thinker is still thinking.

#6 from Nancy W on November 24, 2009

Thanks Lorne for your post and for the suggestion; is that the mbconf.ca website?

On the humorous side; one good thing about being single is that you can think all you want and no one is there to hassle you about the practical stuff:)

Lorne, out of curiosity, do you mind me asking, what is your spiritual gifting?

Shaun and Adam, I’m also curious about your giftings, if you don’t mind sharing.

Have a good day!

#7 from Shaun on November 24, 2009

Giftings? Not sure what that is in reference to? Spiritual? Or inherent attributes?

#8 from Nancy W on November 24, 2009

I’m sorry I don’t mean to get off the topic of this blog; curiosity just got the best of me. I’m referring to spiritual gifting as in 1 Cor. 12:4-11 & Ephesians 4:7-16.
Thanks

#9 from Shaun on November 24, 2009

You know , Ive never really shied away from a question before , but i think im going to do so here. The giftings (spiritual) are always to give God glory , further His kingdom , or to do some service respect His kingdom/people (warn , teach , etc etc). I’m not sure how saying on this forum will accomplish any of those tasks…. im not sure Northview is an environment where such things could be discussed without some form of veiled disdain being launched our way. So , aside from puffing myself up , i see no purpose in answering that question…. sorry Nancy. But i will throw you a bone. I play a mean cow bell. Now i know its not a spiritual gift… but its darn close. I am to cow bell what Chopin was to piano… its remarkable .... it reeks of awesomeness….. :o) hope u understand Nancy….. in person i would feel far more comfortable discussing such things…. but not here.

PS *laughs* at Lornwells last sentence

#10 from Shaun on November 26, 2009

>>>>>So, why am I writing about this on a church blog? Well, I think the church of Jesus Christ ought to be the most thoughtful and creative group of people in the world today. We ought to be transformative agents in our communities. But, I don’t think that will happen unless we discipline our minds for deeper thinking. What do you think? <<<<<<<

Ok , i gotta be honest here….. i got a problem with this statement , for a few reasons. First off you seem to be making the implication that an attribute which one can do nothing to acquire is a necessity for the church to be effective. Intellect. A person can do nothing to achieve it , either you are born with it or you are not. Also i would argue , effectively too i might add , that the paradoxical principles of our faith run contrary to nearly everything sold to us by our culture. Who told you being an intellectual is a beneficial thing? (assuming you are one ) If a person is an intellectual and it is a positive thing is there line beyond which it becomes more of a detriment than a benefit? I would argue that if a person had a choice it would be better to be special needs than to be a genius. Just as i would argue it would be better to be ugly than beautiful, and poor rather than rich. This paradoxical (seemingly) principles should be a cornerstone of any worldview , in fact , Ive heard in your sermons things which would lead me to conclude that you in fact agree…. so why post this?

You also say that transforming our communities can not be done until we discipline our minds for deeper thinking? Seriously? I’m not even gonna bother picking that apart , shouldn’t have to…. but honestly a little shocked you even said that.

Ahhh that’s better. Ever since reading that i felt this itch , this itch to say what i think. It was driving me batty…. but all is well now (assuming it gets posted).

#11 from Nancy W. on November 26, 2009

Shaun, you’d better send Jeff a box of chocolates or flowers after that smack upside the head. I hope he’s laughing.

Jeff, honestly you’re a great guy to even let us talk about anything controversial at all, so good on you Pastor Bucknam.

God bless!

#12 from adam on November 26, 2009

im not a deep thinker, nor am i creative in any way. but i do not feel any less thoughtful or disciplined in my thinking. im going to defend what Jeff said here a little bit. anyone who has heard Jeffs sermons knows how good he is at challenging the church, and us as individuals. so its the church as a collective group should be more thoughtful, creative, disciplined and deep thinking. and the deep thinking aspect may not come in the form of philosophy or theology, but more in the form of self reflection and understanding Gods calling. deep thinking doesnt mean intelligent, and being intelligent doesnt mean you’re a deep thinker. but we are called to meditate on Gods word, think about it deeply, pray for clarity, and then with that will come wise decisions. i find that people in these times are living freely, without much thought behind their actions. you ask why did u do that, and the response is i dont know. there is a lack of thought behind most actions as to how this is going to affect those around me. is this good for me? is this what Gods wants? those are not questions most of us ask ourselves before doing something. so how can our community be transformed to represent the kingdom, when the kingdom isn’t even on our minds? i have more to say, but im a slow typer and this has already taken way too long. Shaun i would like to encourage you to talk to Jeff directly and work to understand what exactly he means, and then from there make your conclusions. thanx

#13 from adam on November 26, 2009

nancy, my gifts are wisdom, faith, teaching, hospitality, shepherding, encouragement. all of course im still growing in, but feel very strong about.

#14 from Nancy Williams on November 26, 2009

WOW Adam! So when are you heading off to seminary?

I’m definitely not intelligent and trust me Shaun I would like to be intelligent. However, I am a deep thinker, and I am a child of God and He thinks deeply about me and together we sometimes do some great things. It’s lovely being His isn’t it!

Deep thinkers I find often make people nervous or even mad sometimes and that makes me sad. It’s hard to find people who like to think hard about things. Mostly I find people just like to surface think; that’s why I find it hard to find people to fellowship with in a real God ordained way. I do more fellowshipping on this blog than in personal contact, so thank you all for sharing your experiences and faith with me. You are my church and I am grateful.

Have a nice evening everyone.

#15 from Shaun on November 26, 2009

Adam , while i disagree with much of not just what you said but the mindset from which it stems , i have to concede your opinion about thinking before we act is important. As for talking to Jeff in person , this isn’t a serious point of contention, and it passed the moderator , so i find it acceptable…...i dont see anything wrong with sharing a view…. scary world it would be if we all agreed or never spoke up when we disagreed. If we avoided what is considered heated conversation i shudder to imagine what kind of world we would live in. That being said , thinking before we act is obviously not what Jeff was referencing…. ala retention of knowledge and comments about peoples abilities to comprehend deep theological/philosophical principles.

#16 from shaun on November 27, 2009

I just feel the need to say that i positioned the tongue sticky outey faces in a manner which would relieve appeared contention from my shpeel… but for some reason they went to the side….this is how it was supposed to be

“effectively too i might add :oP”

“assuming you are one :oP”

If i should be apologizing to anyone and speaking to them in person , it would be you adam, for the things that have went through my mind about you. Mr.Bucknam i have a tremendous amount of respect for…. in fact while describing him to people who dont attend northview ive commonly used the phrase “ungay man crush”. Disagreement is not only not contentious (i LOVE double negatives) , it is the means by which we get to the core of our beliefs. My personal opinion is that at any given time i have multiple conflicting worldviews/beliefs floating around in my mind while believing them all true…. and usually it is not until someone disagrees with me do i question my conception of “truth”. Its a good thing… trust me. Not saying my disagreement with Jeff is absolute truth , but my motives are not impure. Peace, and what is christianese for goodbye…..?..... oh right blessing. :oP

#17 from adam on November 28, 2009

it sure is awful how easily we can create a picture of someone in our head just by a couple of words that we have read of theirs. Shaun, whatever your thoughts were, im sure u had good reason for, and may even be true. but i appreciate the humility being displayed. honestly, i probably misread most of what u say because half the time i dont even know what you are saying. my vocabulary just isnt that big. and i dont speak in the same way u do. maybe i shouldn’t comment then. so im sure some of what i have read, is not really what was said. but its so difficult on here to get the full picture. anyways, if that was an apology, i forgive you, and happy blogging.

#18 from Shaun on November 29, 2009

Hmmm. Well although i cannot say i understand your perspective , i have gotten used to it. Your your disdain towards me for the reasons you had is something that ive gotten used to over the years. Before i explain myself i gotta apologize. The last sentance i wrote was kind of a jab…...sorry bout that. But going back to what i was saying before. All that being said , its not like i come on to these forums and say to myself “Ok , how can i sound as smart as possible. How can i use words to make myself sound above others?” This is just how i talk man. Everything i said here is off the top of my head , its how ive spoken ever since i was a child. It annoys people , but its who i am. Now that being said there is one thing i would like to say to you , dont EVER under ANY circumstance let someone discourage you from speaking your mind. Im a ardent supporter of people being an open book , laying their hearts and minds on the table. Plus , truth of the matter is that the gospel is spread not through the eloquence of man , but through the power of the spirit. Please dont EVER let someone , even if they are being dismissive , cause you to not say what you think. But as a word of encouragement , you are not the first person to feel the way about me that you do , and you will not be the last….. but please remember that im just being me. Expecting me to go out of my way to pretend to be something im not to appease someone else would be wrong. Cheers bro.

#19 from Nancy W on December 01, 2009

I got this article from off the internet this morning.

Signs of internet addictions
1.You check your email every five minutes, and spend more time in chat rooms than chatting in your living room with friends and family.
2.Your relationships suffer because of your internet use. Weak relationships are a sign of internet addiction.
3.Your family and friends complain about your computer use (a sure sign of internet addiction is friends complaining).
4.You hide the amount of time you spend on the internet. This is a strong sign of internet addiction.
5.You hide the websites you surf. Secrecy is a sign of internet addiction.
6.You use your computer to escape problems or avoid reality (this could be a huge sign of an internet addiction or other psychological disorders)
7.You have a hard time staying off the computer for a day or two.
8.You feel preoccupied by the internet when you’re not online. This is a sign of internet addiction.
Pay attention to the signs of internet addiction, because it can overtake your life. Dealing with an internet addiction can involve seeking medical or theraputic help, or simply limiting the amount of time you spend surfing or blogging. To beat an internet addiction, try new activities. Take a class or join a team—often, kicking an internet addiction involves incorporating new activities into your life. END…....

Northview is the only blog I use; it’s enough for me to satisfy my need to talk with someone who cares about stuff other than just everyday ordinary stuff. I check it whenever Daryl sends a post through. I check my email a lot right now because I am looking for work and most of my potential jobs come in through my email.

I can see where the internet would become a nasty habit particularly to single people. Relationships are hard and this seems to be an easier way to relate without all the ‘working out’ a relationship takes. We have Daryl to protect us when our input is something others would rather not hear or we are being ‘highly’ insensitive. Too bad we don’t have that luxury in personal contact.

Just thought this would be interesting for us to know and negative signs to look out for…since we are on the subject of the internet eating our brain.

Too da loo!