The Northview Blog

Oh, There Are 10,000 Charms…

Over the last few months, several of our worship leaders have led a hymn called ‘Come Ye Sinners’  (I Will Arise and Go To Jesus). Each time it has been sung, a few individuals are bothered by the line, “And in the arms of my great Saviour, oh there are 10,000 charms”. The most common question that arises is something along the lines that charms have to do with witchcraft, so why are we singing about it in church? In fact, I’ve encountered the same concern on internet worship forums. Here are a few thoughts to help you overcome any hesitations about singing these words as an expression of your worship to Jesus!

First of all, I wanted to assure people that we as worship leaders take great pains to assess the lyrical content of what we sing in church services. These are acts of worship, proclamatory truths, and creeds. They are also songs of expressing our hearts and thoughts toward God, and about Him. 

Second, looking directly at the phrase in question, poetic language such as is written in lyrics, often takes the approach of painting pictures with words. Taking one single word out of its context, much like interpreting Scripture, does not give full meaning to the reader. 

On the site, http://www.Dictionary.com, there are 16 different definitions of the word ‘charm’. So trying to infer a single one without the context of the bigger picture is rather ‘hit and miss’. So when we sing that, like a prodigal, “I will arise and go to Jesus; He will embrace me in His arms. And in the arms of my great Saviour, oh, there are 10,000 charms”, it is a great stretch to think of a penitent sinner acquiring magical amulets from Jesus! On the other hand, receiving all of the promises of grace and salvation from the Father’s Son, is one of the most powerful reasons to fall at Jesus’ feet! 

Defintion #10 - to delight or please greatly by beauty, attractiveness, etc.; enchant: She charmed us with her grace.

There is also the problem of how language is used in different times and settings. Forty years ago, when the Flintstones theme song sang, “We’ll have a gay, old time”, it did not carry the connotations that are associated to it today. In the same way, ‘charm’ has had a myriad of usages.  Joseph Hart wrote the lyrics in 1759, and I would gather from other period literature that ‘charm’ had to do with personality and attractiveness (four of the 16 definitions deal with this aspect – one other, by the way, comes from the field of physics… and refers to a state of matter in Quark particles). 

Those of us who have known the mercy of God’s forgiveness and a brand new start to our life, will resonate with the heart of the Prodigal Son in Jesus’ parable. It is my goal to help put any hindrance behind us that could keep us from expressing our love and devotion to the One who has saved us! We are all, ultimately, sinners, poor and needy, weak and wounded, sick and sore. To whom else would we look for complete healing but Him who said, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matt. 11:28, KJV)), “and the one who comes to Me, I will certainly not cast out.” (John 6:37, NASB) 

Could there ever be anyone more charming?


Previous Comments

#1 from tom wood on September 11, 2009

I agree johnny
it is the motive and the intent of the heart in what we are doing that counts.we don’t always need to critique every little word Jesus knows our heart and that should be my only concern the condition of my heart toward Jesus. keep up the good work

#2 from Terry Friesen on September 11, 2009

Like Tom, I agree with you, however, we are all conditioned by a lifetime of symantics and the connotations that words have had in our own experience. Words are powerful. I love this song, but the phrase “10,000 charms” sticks in my craw and I cannot get myself to lip the words, even though I am totally aware of the meaning and context of the word “charms”. The fact that I have to do these mental gymnastics distracts from my act of worship. Being aware of the melding religious techniques coming out of the ‘Emerging Church’, the use of the word ‘charms’ should give one pause. Besides, it is always good to think hard on what one is singing to God.

#3 from Diana on September 14, 2009

I just thought of it as a wonderful treasure….

#4 from Shaun on September 14, 2009

I can assure you Mr.Friesen that God is not concerned with whether or not you say the word charms. I will go one step further and say that He isn’t all that interested in what has become “sunday morning worship” (no offence to anyone…. i personally enjoy sunday morning worship). I think the point Mr.Wood was saying is that if a situation were to present itself wherein your words matched not your heart… what would God look at? The mispoken word or the state of the heart?  I’m most certain that the state of the heart is not seen in a moment wherein someone unintentionally uses a word with some negative connotations , but instead over the course of ones life by the sum of ones actions. So i guess im trying to say don’t worry, its not really a big deal, were Jesus to be here, the word in that song would be near the bottom of the list of things that trouble him.

#5 from Nancy Williams on September 21, 2009

I agree that God is concerned about the heart and not the words. The point however is not whether you or I or anyone else enjoys Sunday morning worship; does God? After all worship is for God to enjoy, not for us ... that’s the only point which needs consideration. Look at Isaiah 58 to see what God says about worship? He says that we can pay Him all the lip service we want but if we don’t meet His needs in others our worship is for naught.  Johnny or anyone else leading worship can’t consider every ones likes and dislikes in conducting worship; his only consideration ought to be God whom worship is for.

#6 from Shaun on September 21, 2009

If i step over a dying man on the way to church then sing songs to God , will that please Him?

#7 from Nancy Williams on September 22, 2009

Let’s make that a little more personal and practical. If I hold bitterness and anger in my heart or spread rumours about someone will my worship please God. I think the sanctuary would be near empty if we took that one to heart.

We fool ourselves into thinking we can get away with that kind of stuff. God won’t allow us to have fulfilled lives in Christ until He takes ‘culture’ and anything else out of us that is hindering us to be His completely. It’s a miracle when that moment comes when we realize that we want Him above all other comforts or insignificant JOYS.

Let’s keep thinking on that and pouring out our hearts before the Lord, that He would change us to be the light in the world that He so longingly wants us to be.

#8 from Shaun on September 22, 2009

I knew i never should have started posting here. Listen , i speak with absolutely no authority. During my christian walk I’ve been in multiple fights , verbally insulted 2 of Northviews pastors (one rather harshly) , insulted another woman who works there , God revealed to me something about a person who was leading a small group ... know what i did? I told a whole bunch of people because i thought a person doing such things shouldn’t be allowed to lead. God corrected me , harshly , and i had to go and confront him directly ... but the damage was done.

Ive gambled , and been drunk once or twice. I smoke , been known to swear and say the blatant truth without second thoughts of how someone will feel. I think I’m smarter than all of you people. I think rather highly of myself in a few areas (not so much in others… but that’s besides the point). I ignore God a GREAT deal of the time. I literally spit in His face. I get mad at Him. I’m far from what a christian should be. Just felt i needed to say that.Its just so many things , because this church scene is new to me , don’t make sense to me.

Why does there appear to be no balance between mystic and laypersons? Maybe I’m the problem. I dunno. I just don’t get how people think God or church or faith is something we ‘do’. I don’t understand why when people have questions they ask another person for advice. I don’t know why people think God is a being off in never never land somewhere way up in the sky. This all just doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t get ‘church’. I’ve never gotten ‘church’. Heck i have a hard enough time keeping myself in line (especially my tongue)... i don’t know. These discussion boards… i don’t get. Ive went to the small service on Saturday nights (with the Q&A) and watched people going to great lengths to make a pastor seem wrong. I don’t get the quadrillion differing theologies. I don’t get how people can hoard their wealth while others suffer. I don’t get how a ‘church’ can be so… theatrical. I don’t get masks. I don’t get why people feel it necessary to pretend that everything is alright when they are torn apart inside.

I don’t get a lot of things. I don’t get why people aren’t honest. I don’t get the seeming need to always say the right thing. So what if your wrong. God would prefer you say what is wrong and teach you what is right then have you walk your life pretending to believe what is right but really being under the core belief of a wrong. I don’t get greeters who feel the need to criticize you on where you sit. I don’t get why Christians bash homosexuals , Muslims , and Catholics. I don’t get why so many Christians support a war in which 500,000 innocent people have died. Why… because they are Muslim they don’t matter to God? I don’t even get my own walk with God , then to get thrust into a ‘church’..... I feel i must say i know full well that people like me are a problem in the church. That is the only reason why i have not and will not officially join. But there are people I’m accountable to , who say the truth without thoughts of my feelings. I’m just new to this whole ‘church’ scene… and it just doesn’t make sense to me. Am i alone in all this? I’m gonna shut up now.

#9 from Nancy Williams on September 22, 2009

Shaun, don’t give up and yes, you should have started posting and keep posting. The beginning of change is confession. You’ve confessed, you don’t have to pretend anymore and that’s exactly what God wants from you…an honest heart. It’s confusing until you get that it’s not people you are following; it’s Jesus that asks us to “follow Him”. People mess up, look at JESUS but don’t give up hope in people either; they are on a journey just as you are.
Give yourself a break! The more you are reading your Bible and asking for understanding the more things will become clear to you. Don’t try to ‘get it’ all in one day and don’t beat yourself up when you mess up. You’ll suffer the consequences of your actions but God won’t go anywhere. He’ll be right there where you left Him every time you reach out to Him. I’m happy to hear that you are being accountable to someone.
You mentioned in one of your postings that you had lost your parents. Shaun that’s a big deal! I don’t know the details but I can well imagine the anger, hate and torment you must go through with that. My kids lost one parent and I know what they’ve gone through over the years. Both of them have never understood church or church people either. Their lives are pretty messed up at times. Ironically enough they both pray because they see my prayers being answered. They know God exists; they just have not personalized Him.
Anyway thanks for posting. It makes us think about how silly some of the things we “church people” do seems so ridiculous and petty.
I’ll be praying for you and pray for all of us too.

#10 from Shaun on September 23, 2009

NO i said i never had parents. They are alive , but they are not nor have ever been parents. Ive never pretended to be something I’m not , so telling me i no longer need to pretend is not necessary, and is actually rather presumptuous.(the things Ive spoken of are not actions I’ve partaken in for quite some time) TO be brutally honest (I’m gonna say this as respectfully as possible as mr.moderator wouldn’t post my last message) i found your response to be very condescending and rather patronizing…. though i must still say thank you for your post Nancy , but I’m going to be true to who i am and say something.

I read a prior post of yours about ‘actors’ in the church. A rather harsh and poignant barrage of comments , most of which i agree with. But i would be quick to caution you about excluding yourself entirely from that group of people. Phariseeism is not something that is obvious to a person , and from my experiences , is something that all suffer from to one degree or another. There is something else i feel the need to say.  I can assure you that thinking of ourselves less not less of ourselves is what God is after , but He also wants us to accurately see our nature. I don’t want to be too harsh , but haughty spiritual views of oneself appear diametrically opposed to how Paul and Peter (etc etc etc) saw themselves. Bin Laden and I are equals , there is not degrees in Gods eyes. Something i don’t think we ‘christiany’ people get. If we did there would be no stone throwing at drug addicts or gays or Muslims and Catholics.

There is 2 things in all of existence , the triune God and everything else. Everything else has been stained with sin , and is therefore dying. To put it metaphorically there are 2 colors , black and white.  Telling a fib or hoarding wealth or gossiping is from His perspective black. So is murder , crime , worshiping false Gods , being a gay , rape ... etc etc etc. Those also are black. So when there are only 2 colors , i ask you , is there a difference between murder and cheating on your taxes? No there is not , they are identical to God, He looks at both and see’s the same thing….. black. Assuredly the greater the sins impact on other people the greater the consequences will be (murder , rape etc etc) , but in Gods eyes i assure you that to lie is to murder. Black , white ... that is it. There is white and there is everything else. If all is black and in God’s eyes sin is not classified by degrees of ‘more badness’ would we be so quick to throw stones at another? If we truly knew and believed that to fib or lack faith in Him or to hoard wealth is truly no different in His eyes than murder or rape would be so quick to judge? If we truly saw things that way we would not be so quick to a haughty nature. I say this not at all to excuse my behavior in the past.  One more time i feel the need to restate it as i did not adequately do so before. 2 things exist in all of existence , Triune One , everything else. 2 colors , black white , 2 directions , up and down.

Everything that is not Triune God is black , down and everything else. From His eyes He sees the exact same thing when he looks at what we deem small sins and what we deem large sins. But both are equal in his eyes though worldly consequences may differ. To lie is black and to rape is down. To condemn is everything else. Its all the same. “The only reason i gave you the law was to show you that you could not keep it.” Jesus Christ. This is a powerful and very…. very deep statement. Remember to whom it was said. This is not at all to say that we do not improve , as we do , but that we are never without blame and never above another. I and Hitler are equals. Do not be so quick to condemn , because i assure you the bible is not lying when it says “You who condemn are guilty of the very thing you are condemning”

#11 from Nancy Williams on September 24, 2009

Hi Shaun,
I’ll apologize about everything I assumed about you; I can tell you’re a very smart man and don’t take a lot of guff from people. Please forgive me for being presumptuous in the areas that you mentioned. And yes, I made a pretty flippant remark about there being ‘actors’ in the church; there are but there are also many good people and also I need to give people credit for the time it takes to grow into a mature Christianity. I was feeling a little negative the day I made that post. I ought to learn not to write when I’m in a negative frame of mind. I apologize for some other comments also.
I was condescending and patronizing ... that’s the mother side coming out in me. My kids love it when I’m that way to them but they just laugh at me.

I too agree that all sin is equal ... that’s why I made the comment about the sanctuary being near empty if people realized that God only respects worship that is pure. (That is my belief only and I am allowed to voice my belief.) I have not been to Northview for almost two years because I have some issues in my life toward people that I want to be swept away completely before I publically give praise and worship to God. I don’t suggest everyone do this but it has been a good exercise for me; I miss fellowship with others and I long for it dearly but when I come back into public worship it will be with a clean and pure heart.
I won’t apologize for God’s word and truth that I believe he has revealed to me. I really do believe that God expects more from those who follow Him than we often think. That is my belief.
Once again, in whatever way I offended you, I am sorry. As a fellow believer in Jesus it is your responsibility to forgive me.

P.S. I really do like the fact that you speak what you think and feel ... and I’m not being condescending, I’m being honest. And if in anyway I further insult you please point it out to me.

#12 from Shaun on September 24, 2009

Well believe me when i say forgiving you for that is not a big deal at all. I would say sorry for being harsh, but it would be a lie. I do believe tact could be used more often for myself. Thanks for your reply Nancy , i appreciate it. Also i wanted to say that Northview has a pastor now who doesn’t spend every weekend talking about God , he does the footwork during the week to ensure he is speaking FOR God. When he speaks, many times sitting there ive been certain that God Himself was speaking directly to me , and certain that many others thought the same thing. His sermon’s have literally followed me around in my so called walk with Christ , and i know of others who say the same (its actually kinda weird). I wish not to intrude into anything God may have shown you , but i will say that by not going you are missing out. (unless of course you watch online). I don’t like ending things by saying ‘blessings to you’ cause i have no idea what that means… so ill just say what i wish for myself , greater penetration of the gospel is what i wish for you and me and everyone else. All the best Nancy :o)

#13 from Nancy Williams on September 24, 2009

I can take harsh, no problem! I really believe that every post that I have posted was from God except the one where I got a little heated; what can I say, I am very passionate about the Church and learning truth. Trust me I seek God every time I post because I don’t want His disapproval of me haunting me. I don’t mind people’s disapproval but I never want God’s wrath to come upon me. That’s not fun!

Challenging people shouldn’t be a thing of concern; you do that and and I do that and it’s all good. How we challenge is a thing to consider and that is something I am always working on. Once in a while I forget to be tactful but if you knew me from the past, you would know that I’ve improved.

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