#1 from David on January 28, 2010

Ok i must first state that Mrs.Peters what i am about to say is not in any way shape or form directed at you , it just so happens that what you said made me think about something , and that something is what i am speaking to , not you. I liked this here message. Ok… just needed to establish that.

In your message it is said that through the ‘frying pan’ we should turn to God. This i agree with , but unfortunately so often i see and hear something opposite. I see and hear of people , myself included , running to things which are god themed , but not god himself. In so doing a person believes they are running to god , when in reality god is right beside them saying “what are you running to? I am right here”. We run to books written by all sorts of authors , we run to church services , we run to pastorates and prayer meetings , we run to the house of james (all of which are not bad things. Things which should be done in concert with god , not with the intent of finding him)we run to all of these places looking for god when all we had to do was take a moment where we are , and talk to him. God is indeed at all of those places , and yes he may well use many of those places , but god is right beside us ... right now as we sit at the computer typing and reading this ... there is god. We needent run to the next religious event to find him , he is here. We dont need to read a thousand books to hear him talk , we just need to listen. We dont have to try our hardest to be the best christians we can be , we just need to put our faith in the god of the here and now and just be ourselves. There is no formula , there is no order , there is no doctrine that will save us. There isnt a pastorate or bible study on the planet that can open your eyes to anything the god beside you wishes your eyes not be opened to. Anywhere we go and anything we do if it is to be fruitful it must be done so by the hand of the god beside us. When it is proven fruitful why do we accredit the place we went and not the god beside us? We expect that if we keep going to this place or keep doing this thing the same thing will happen. We do this because we forget that all things beneficial are not done by the hands nor plans of man , not through his programs nor pursuits , but by god himself… who is right beside you. We needent run to all corners of the globe looking for a place where god seems to be the most present , we dont need to skip from church to church looking for a church which is more “god/spirit” sensitive… because god is right beside us. If we are chasing these things in an attempt to experience or find new levels of god , it is not god we are chasing. God is right here , right now and he says “if you seek me , you will find me” not “if you seek me and read the bible , attend pastorates , go to worship sessions etc etc you will find me” We just need to believe. God does talk , we just dont listen. God is here , but we run around because we dont believe it. Why do we initiate formulaic programs in an attempt to force the hand of god? Do we think god responds to our whims and efforts? Why not sit back and listen for him , and move when he speaks? why must we play god and chase idols in the form of god? This is not what i read in the bible , in fact , i know not how or why this came to be…. but it is not christianity , it is idolatry.

and no i am not saying we shouldnt do any of those things. If that is what you are hearing , you miss what i am saying.

#2 from Nancy Williams on January 31, 2010

David ... beautiful!

I’m not Mrs. Peters nor would I presume to have her Bible knowledge but from my perspective what you are saying is dead on.

I do have a few questions for you:

1)  You stated ... “if you seek me, you will find me” not “if you seek me and read the bible.”
You may not have intended to sound as though reading the Bible is not a most important thing to do, so here are my thoughts just to clarify:
The Bible is God’s word to us and we need to study it carefully for ourselves. We owe it to ourselves not to let the Bible be interpreted solely through the different sources you mention but to examine it carefully for ourselves, always understanding the historical context in which it was written, and use other sources to confirm what the Holy Spirit is revealing to us. We need to understand why it was written to whom and how does that apply to us in our time. If we follow others through preaching, books written etc, as you have said, hinging on the words of what a select few think, we will make God out to be what we want Him to be. It’s important that we discover God for ourselves and know thoroughly what we believe.

However with that said I want to address another area of thought:
2)  We need other Christians to confirm what we believe. If you read through Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus and Philemon you will get the group picture and why we need each other to grow “in Christ”. Christianity isn’t to be played out individually; it is to be played out as a people of God together, hence: your authors, preachers, teachers, worship directors, servers, deacons, elders, administrators, prophets, exhorters & encouragers etc. Together we learn to walk in faith “in Christ”. We “listen” to God through ALL those He gifts for the edification of the “Church”. Programs etc, are to be a tool to draw us closer to God; sometimes they are not. Sometimes they take us further away from the truth, which is when they become idolatrous. I agree we run to far too many things and often don’t take the time to just sit and listen. Very well said.

3)  I’m also wondering about the theology of God walking “beside” us. Read Romans, Corinthians and Galatians. The theme in these epistles is “Christ in you, the hope of glory”. Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me ... .” and Romans 8:11 “And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you”.
Christ “living” in us; this is what makes us unique and sets us apart from the world. I don’t know about the theology of God walking beside us. Do you know where that comes from or does anyone else? I can’t find it in scripture.

Thanks David for your great insight and your love for truth.

ps Summary. It may seem like no big deal but its HUGE. This was very vague and barely touched on the serious points. I truly believe that i have managed to convince myself that i live for god , but in reality , when i look at my actions , they speak of a seccularist mentality. I deserve my rights , life ..... liberty….. and the pursuit of happiness. That last one , the pursuit of happiness , is what my life is about. And when i look at the beattitudes , i wonder if because of this mentality , i stop the process before it has even begun.

#3 from david on January 31, 2010

Nancy. Ok , well to first answer your question about the bible. THe overarching theme should have portrayed what i intended to say. I said “if you seek me , you will find me” god said this.. he never said “if you seek me conditionally based on certian factors you will find me”... heck i found god and was not even seeking him… how is that theologically correct?

YOu see , much problem is that in my mind and the world through my eyes i am doing what i believe is seeking god , but i am not , i am seeking god shaped idols. It is like those who seeks spiritual “freedom”. They go to places looking to find gold dust and see gems and hear tounges… they think they are chasing the spirit… but they are not… they are chasing the acts of the spirit .. not the spirit itself. I believe much a problem in todays christiany world. We think we are chasing god , but instead we are chasing a selfish ambition disguised as a sincire search of god. When we read the bible it is because it is gods word , it is god speaking to us. God himself. Now in an extreme case , were all bibles to be burned and all records lost… and somehow all memory faded away from all people in an instant… would god forsake everyone? Would we all be doomed to a life of deception and depravity because we have no access to the bible? Of course we wouldnt. So it can be said , that the bible is not in itself the relationship with god , it is what is read as a result of a relationship with god. Anything that can be taken away and still have the relationship exist is not in itself the relationship…. it is hard for me to share my thoughts ... to find words for them… i hope i have adequetly done so here… but what i am saying is that the bible , to many in many ways , has become an idol. Contoversial statement , but i say it with authority that is not my own , and i will defend it to the death. It is god himself , not his words nor his acts. BEsides , without god himself… the bible is nothing. Without gods intervention , the bible is nonsensical bull crap. The bible even says this about the bible. In order for truth to be seen , scales must be removed .. the bible is not god… it is what is read as a result of ones relationship with god. It is , and has been , and will be idolized… seen as synonymous with god himself. It is very possible to read the bible with the intent of learning about something we have yet to be shown. Intellectual pursuits deprived of relationship. IT is out of the reality of the breathing and living god that the bible is of any relevance.

Those programs. I spoke about my objection. Many of them are formulaic done by the hands of men who play god. They think that they can institute some formulaic program and that it will be fruitful because it is “god” shaped. People who do this do not realize that it doesnt matter how accurately god shaped it is , in order to be fruitful in any way shape or form , god must make it so. We attribute fruitfullness to our efforts , create perameters within which we demand god operate , we try to force the hand of god with regimintism. We , through our actions and church policy , scream of a severe lack of faith in god , and profess our own diety. I am not saying these things are bad , they are not , but like mr.bucknam said over the weekend , its not what we love , its the order of our love.

God beside us was a simple metaphor to contradict the view that god is “out there”. When people imagine god they look to the sky (some) and imagine a diety ... out there somewhere…. that he is ... looking down on us.. when really he is right here. I dont want to get into this , but it was not to be taken literally , the god beside us was simply metaphorically used to counter the lie that god is far off ... looking down on us… on the outside looking in… withdrawn…. distant… not involved… etc etc etc.

What i am saying , is coincidentlly and cooly enough what jeff referenced this weekend about the conclusions augustine came to. Now i have read about his life, and how he lived it , but not anything about his theology and philosophy. I knew not he saw the single cause of human ailment as the misapropiation of priorities. I myself have come to the same conclusion… it is to that and for that mentality i speak. I look at churches.. and so much isnt christianity… its just stuff we do because our parents did it. So much of what we said is vapid bs… it doesnt mean anything.. but we say it because others do. These things are merely symptoms… and as mr.agustine thought… all symptoms come to one disease. The misappropiation of loves. It really simple stuff , but has millions of ramifications. So ya , thats why i said what i said.

ps I am not immune to this. To those thinking bad things about me , how do you think i have come to these conclusions? By what means have i gained insight into human selfishness and deception at the hands of western society? I have done so by studying myself… it is by looking inward that i see the evils of the world. So be fair.

pps. I believe much in and done by church is ordained by god. Youth groups and pastorates for example , in principle i believe are something god desires. IN application , im not so sure, but i am not god and he has not spoken about such things so i do not know. But what i do know , is that a theocracy is possible. A benevolent dictatorship , so to speak , is not only possible , but as a church… is the goal. I mean , shouldnt that be the objective? I just want people (myself included) to talk to god like hes real , like he is right beside us , i want people to EXPECT to hear back from god… as he promises to do so in his word.(yes that will be manifested differently for different people… but the end is the same) I want god to lead the church , not the elders. I want them to be the means through which god leads the church , i want them to hear from god in more ways that what is currently done , i want them to relationship with god like they relationship with any other living entity. There is always something tangible in a relationship , if god never speaks to us , then ... that is rather one sided do you not think? Not only that , it goes against the promise he makes in his word. So it is more of a challenge to those in leadership , for the sake of those they have been entrusted to shepherd , to diligently seek true relationship with god and to not rely on their own intellect , but in fact to see it as inadequete. To move when god speaks and remain still when they hear not. To work together , as close as any family of brothers and sisters is , to seek god diligently together , to hear from god as individuals , and verified by groups , and even spoken to as groups , to have the church be god run and not man run , so that us who are under your leadership ... will not be lead astray. I am challenging the leadership to do that which i myself do not do adequetly. I expect more from them , and i think i speak for god when i say he expects more from them. It is a challenge i wish will not fall on deaf ears , it is a challenge i wish will not be rejected because of the foolish mouth it comes out of… i wish an end to religion , and i want to see the church of god be just that… a benevolent dictatorship. That is why i say what i do.

#4 from Nancy W. on February 01, 2010

Thanks for the challenge, David.

You know what though, unless we have God’s wisdom in a matter, it’s like beating ones head against a wall. So let’s try to get God’s wisdom on a matter that is so very important to so many in the church and outside its walls.

Speaking of walls, in the book of Nehemiah the walls of the church (temple) were broken down. When Nehemiah heard the reports of the broken down walls, he first wept then fasted and prayed for four months before he acted. How many of us have sought God in that way and with such passion, over a matter that means life or death to all?

I think the key for laity and leadership is to have a burden that is so burning in our hearts that we can’t help but weep and pray for hours and days and months until God speaks and we receive from Him “His” (not others preferential opinions or ideas) but God’s instructions to us His Church. The type of devotion, as Nehemiah had, would for sure get God’s attention and He could not help but lead us into better and more fruitful days ahead. I don’t think coming up with different ways of doing church is the answer; it never has been. The book of Nehemiah is a very clear example of what spiritually starving people need.

Perhaps all planning should cease and all interested people along with leadership should honestly, as if our lives depends on it, seek God. The world is waiting for good news! Why not put all preferences and plans aside and find out with one heart and mind what God intends for His Church. Why don’t we all, who care, weep uncontrollably over the state of the church in our country and in the world and plead with God to give us His burden and His passion for His people and the people of this world. Maybe most of us just don’t understand how desperate we are; perhaps because we are so rich with the goods of this world and our own personal walls have not yet caved in; what fools we are to be satisfied with so little of God and so unwilling to selflessly care for the things He cares about.

I have a far-fetched idea; it may be from God ... you all discern: schedule a “where do we go from here meeting” (yep, another meeting)four months from now. Only those who have daily prayed for Northview and the Church worldwide are invited to come share what God has strongly laid on their hearts. If the idea is from God,and you have indeed “repentively and honestly” sought God on the issue, I bravely say you will likely be unanimous in your vision for the future of Northview.

There you go Dave, another idea but who knows what could happen ... God had an idea once and He said it was good!

#5 from Kimberley Baker on February 23, 2010

Thank you Pastor Bev for this… I’m ashamed to say that I’m only catching up on all my blog reading now!

I’m such a visual learner so word pictures always work well for me, and since I like to cook the idea of the gooey pancake is sticking with me - I haven’t been able to get it out of my mind since reading it…

How many times have I cried out for God to ‘remove me from the pan’ because I either a)thought I couldn’t handle the heat or b)figured I was done because of how I looked on the outside. This obviously sheds light on how I sometimes view God and… well there’s that control word again.

Thanks for the reminder, and I’m so thankful in the end that I’m not the one who decides when ‘I’m done.’

Blessings.

PS I have a special memory of this song. I was actually behind the writer during ‘Encounterfest’ (a youth conference) at Hillsong. It was in the middle of a sermon that I watched him start writing the lines… we learned it that evening. It is so wonderful how God speaks to us. A moment of illumination from Him can translate into something that spreads across the world.